My diesel gets better MPG than your hybrid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Slair @ Aug 6 2007, 08:47 AM) [snapback]491167[/snapback]</div>

Fuel economy is very dependant on driver ability. Yes, the diesel Jetta can get better mpg than me in my Prius. In the rally EVERY diesel turned in better numbers than me. However, not one beat our Mr. Hobbit in his Prius or Meredith in her Insight.

Factor in that the Jetta is smaller and dirtier than the Prius and that diesel can be more expensive are they really "better" if they get 5mpg more?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Aug 8 2007, 11:46 PM) [snapback]492851[/snapback]</div>

"the rally?" Is there a mixed hybrid and non-hybrid rally?

Bob Wilson

 

Who cares?
Let him drive a diesel, you can't stop him and you drive a hybrid, he can't stop you.
I looked at both hybrids and diesels before I bought a Prius and the Prius was cheaper for me to buy and used less fuel in the type of driving I do each day. I can't tow with my Prius but I can with my wife's RAV4 so that isn't an issue for me. The Jetta owner may only have one car and may want to tow a trailer sometimes, or he may do most of his driving on country roads.

Horses for courses and each to his own.

 

I considered the Jetta TDI since I was still able to buy a brand new one here in March, but decided againstit mainly due to the fact it has a poor maintenance record. If you were to drive the Prius the same was as the Jetta, the mileage would be so close to each other for city, that it wouldnt matter. Drive a Prius the same as the Jetta, and you will find that the statement will hold true.


Aside from that, the Prius is overall a much better car.

As for emissions, if the 2008 models were to use even cleaner burning bio, those numbers would be far lower, except N0x. I think the perception against Diesel is mainly due to the fact that you can see the exhaust from a diesel when under hard acceleration, where you cant from a gasser. I can tell you this, under hard acceleration, the gasser is dumping far more pollutants out the pipe than the diesel, the cats cannot convert the exhaust fast enough with that kind of flow. Get behind someone who is flooring it and you will know what I mean when you take a deep breath. CARB and EPA standards don't take into account hard or heavy acceleration when they make their lists, they basically take them on an engine at a set speed, moderate acceleration, and idle. Also a diesel has unmetered airflow, no matter how fast or slow it is running it consumes the same volume of air, where a gas regulates the amount of air consumed, and the fuel system needs to meter in the precise amount to maintain the 14:1 ratio, if it is off by any percent, emissions go up. Diesels meter the fuel for the needed power, the more power needed the more fuel injected. So what this means is when at a set speed and power requirement, the fuel injected into the diesel engine is exactly what is needed, nothing more, nothing less, on a gasser though, if the ratio is off a fraction, the fuel being delivered will always be off, either rich or lean, and will affect emissions.

To summarize, if the Prius has any kind of issue where its metering of the fuel is off, it will no longer be a clean burning car, where the TDI, no matter what, will always produce the same emissions levels. The 2008 models with the PM filters though, different story since they can clog up and cause problems, but even then the emissions will be low.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Slair @ Aug 9 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]492939[/snapback]</div>

It's not that it CAN'T tow ... its that the manufacturer says its a no no. Any suspension / warranty issue that comes up, and they find a hitch welded on? Kiss your warranty good by, regarding those issues. That's all. As for mpg / and the jetta, it's smaller, so the fact that it's similar in mpg is no big deal. Put the synergy sysem on a diesel, and THEN see what the mileage is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Slair @ Aug 9 2007, 11:18 PM) [snapback]492939[/snapback]</div>

Because Toyota say you can't tow with a Prius. It's in the hand book.
In Australia it is unlawful to exceed the manufacturers rated towing capacity and as Toyota rate the towing capacity at 0kg then that is what you are allowed to tow. You would also void the warranty in the drive train and traction battery. I believe the power split device is the weak link in the chain.

It isn't a problem but it does need to be considered.

Diesel Hybrid? Good point Hill, combine the technologies and move the world. I think the touque required to start the diesel and the harshness of start up may reduce the marketability but with variable valve timing to reduce compression, who knows.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bestmapman @ Aug 6 2007, 08:22 AM) [snapback]491238[/snapback]</div>

great info!!

pleased your jetta has worked well with you and i guess its obvious the Prius is still the economy king. \

my neighbor had a jetta, a 2004 and her issues were not really mechanical, it was her sound system, installed by VW that created electrical issues that burned out some sort of sensor in the engine (they THINK.... its my impression they never really knew what the issues were) it took MONTHS of stays at the dealer averaging 1 to 5 days a month to get it diagnosed and corrected.

i had close 2nd hand knowledge as i was her primary ride giver when going to pick up the car. VW had pickup service, but frequently gave her a 2 hour wait time so she would ask me if i was available. me, who got my first Prius the same month she got hers, was more than happy to oblige her while fighting the very insistant "I told you so" tone in my voice.

i dont live there anymore but did see her a few months back. she has had little problems since then, and loves her car, but its not getting that great of mileage for her. just over 30 in city, and "around 50-55 on the highway" but she lives in town, works in town and admits to only occasional trips to Seattle, so not much freeway for her.

she does complain that routine maintenance trips (which were free up until recently) are costing her $150+ a pop. i told her i do oil every 5,000 miles at $30 and that is all. plan to change air and cabin filter in the next few weeks...

 

In the UK VW have just announced the new Pole Bluemotion that is 99 g/km CO2, the Prius is no longer the lowest. The combined cycles in the UK is 74.3 which I think is about 60mpg US. The city is a bit less than the Prius so in the real world it will be interesting to see what it actually gets if you are not doing lots of steady motorway driving. Plus it is a lot smaller.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Aug 7 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]491885[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, I didn't (and still don't) see where you said WAGON before, but thanks for clearing that discrepancy up! I'll leave the emissions questions to the experts!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kettledrum @ Aug 9 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]493206[/snapback]</div>

It's in my signature with the current average mileage for my TDI, Prius, and BMW. You can click on them to see the actual numbers graphed.

Dave:

The 4th generation Jetta Sedan and New Beetle are well known for having lots of electrical issues. Did she have a TDI or gas? The 2.0 Turbo gas engine also had lots of problems.

 

it was a TDI with factory installed upgraded stereo that was the supposed culprit.

it was supposed to have caused a sensor to malfunction causing the jetta to accelerate poorly. it hesitated, smoked, choked, etc... the sensor was replaced (along with every component in the neighborhood i think) 2 or 3 times... maybe more before they found that a poorly grounded stereo component was causing the sensor to go out...

to be honest with ya, i never really bought what was said by the service person and all the info from the mechanic was 2nd hand thru the service dept...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Aug 9 2007, 05:30 PM) [snapback]493221[/snapback]</div>

Ahh, the signature....obv. wasn't looking there, was looking at the posts themselves. Thanks.

However, you said that you get 50-55 mpg on the highway? I don't see that in your graph

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Slair @ Aug 9 2007, 06:48 AM) [snapback]492939[/snapback]</div>

Many people make the statement that the Prius has a lot of torque - actually it hasn't and has significantly less at the wheels than most small cars!

On a conventional car the engine torque is multiplied by the gearbox and then the final drive before it gets to the wheels. For example the Yaris engine produces about 100ft-lb of torque which is multiplied by about 4 times in first gear and then a further 4 times in the final drive to give about 1600ft-lb at the wheels.

In the Prius MG2 produces 295ft-lb and the ICE contributes up to 61ft-lb into the final drive that multiplies the combined torque by 4.125 times to give about 1470 ft-lb at the wheels, quite a bit less than the Yaris.

Also the Yaris weighs several hundred pounds less than the Prius.

Full torque from the electric motor is only available up to about 18mph - similar the range that first gear would be used in a conventional car.

kevin

 

This afternoon, I was headed back to work when a Jetta pulled out in front of me. The little gray-black cloud from the exhaust waifed around a rear that was covered by the dark, exhaust stain. In Alabama, we're not too worried about diesels but I saw that fine layer of carbon dust as lost energy.

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kettledrum @ Aug 9 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]493313[/snapback]</div>

I haven't been doing much highway driving since I've been keeping the log on GreenHybrid.com. Most of the tanks have some mix of highway and city driving since they were from me driving back and forth between TN and AL when we were moving. My TDI will go 700 miles on a tank so even though I was driving 300 miles between cities, I was still getting 10 to 20% city driving. I was also in a hurry and driving on the high side of 80 mph with the A/C on. More recently I've driving around suburban Birmingham.

Now when we do our yearly trip from TN to MI to see our parents for Christmas, we do a whole tank of just highway each way. I usually drive 5 mph over the speed limit so 70 to 75 mph. It is winter so no A/C. Our typical mileage is 50 to 52 mpg.

My wife also spend 4 years driving 100 miles per day to the University of TN. She took a 4 lane divided state highway at a steady 60 mph. I would fill it up for her every Saturday. With this type of driving she was constantly getting 50 to 55 mpg depending on how much driving we did around town on the weekend.

 

Joining late, but from time to time, http://forums.tdiclub.com/ has some of the same kind of hybrid-bashing...some of the ones trolling seem like they just got back from a sports bar drinking too many beers screaming utter nonsense. Fortunately it seems to be getting better. Too bad it's not like a real meeting so we can see the blathering idiot, see the crowd roll their eyes and ignore him....

There is an X-Prize type of contest to see who can put out the 1st 100mpg vehicle (unspecified criteria, but will probably have to simulate ordinary driving conditions)....a diesel/hybrid would be a good start to get the prize.

 

Jhinton, just so you don't get the wrong idea, I wasn't trying to call you a liar or anything, just when pointed to the sig, I then went there and expected to see those numbers there, that's all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kettledrum @ Aug 10 2007, 11:31 AM) [snapback]493574[/snapback]</div>

I didn't take it that way. I was simply explaining why the GreenHybrid.com log is rather low. If it was a lifetime average I would take a guess at 50 to 51 mpg since most of the 140K miles on the car have been highway. It still even has the original brake pads!

 

:lol: :lol: Nobody's diesel gets better mileage than MY hybrid, Bee-otch!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: