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My official Prius Plus mods thread.

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Accessories & Modifications' started by Cheap!, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(benighted @ Sep 25 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]517695[/snapback]</div>
    Yes, I understand. That is what this open source is about....helping each other out, and keeping this information public. I never again want to see cars like the EV1 thrown away because they don't use gas. By keeping this open source, “the cat is out of the bag†and nobody will be able to hide this information from us again.

    Simple explanation of the Prius Plus system. It puts the two packs in parallel when the OEM battery can hold more power safely, and then it shuts off again so the OEM battery can use that energy for a while. Then it repeats as needed until the second pack is empty.

    Mr. bigh,
    I think having a fire safe box like your, has it merits and I'm not sure about two boxes with interconnects. I mean I know it would work, but it may add more expense to the project. The thing I like most about your box is the safety you built into it. If we could make the box safe, and removable we will be on to something. I could see the Plug-ins of the future having a drop out trunk that would leave the pack in your garage when you went on a long trip.
     
  2. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mrbigh @ Sep 25 2007, 06:49 PM) [snapback]517661[/snapback]</div>
    Thanks for the tip, I'll look into those!

    Rob
     
  3. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Sep 26 2007, 05:39 PM) [snapback]518187[/snapback]</div>
    Is this the one you're looking at?
    http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/batter..._LC-RD1217P.pdf

    For Panasonic LC-RD1217P I get Np = 1.21, Cp = 16.4Ah, resulting in 6.8 minutes to 100% discharge at 60A. Weight 287.6 lbs, cost $1035 at digikey price.

    For BB EVP20-12 I get Np = 1.146, Cp = 20, resulting in 11 minutes to 100% discharge at 60A. Weight 286.6 lbs, cost $800.

    So, it seems to me that for the same weight the BBs give 60% longer run time at load, for less money. They will also do a little better than shown, as their internal resistance is lower which is not accounted for in this calc (my big spreadsheet is at home).

    Not trying to be a wise guy, just want to understand why you like them.

    Rob
     
  4. cewert

    cewert New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Sep 26 2007, 06:16 PM) [snapback]518207[/snapback]</div>
    You might want to double check on the $800 if that wasn't recent. Lead prices have more than tripled this year and most AGM battery manufactures have increased prices around 40% just in the last 2 months. I believe that typically BB and Panasonic batteries are closely priced.

    You might also look at the Universal 22ah battery: UB12220. They are the same physical size (although the terminals stick up over the top about 1/8") and I think just slightly heavier. I did a PHEV conversion using those batteries in my parent's car and they are seeing a 16 mile EV range. No idea how they will hold up as far as number of cycles, but they seem to be able to do about 4kWh / cycle throughput.

    Chris
     
  5. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Sep 26 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]518207[/snapback]</div>
    I agree with Chris also, prices went sky rocket lately. Digikey doesn't have the best prices around in this type of batteries, google for master distributors but be aware of S/H, these are heavy.

    In your replay, the two type of batteries are not equal in Amp capacity, the Panasonic you choose is 17Ah and the BB is 20Ah. As a note, I'm using 20 Panasonic 28Ah
     
  6. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mrbigh @ Sep 26 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]518241[/snapback]</div>
    True, but they are the same size and weight. If the BB battery can get 20 Ah in the same volume and weight that the Panasonic gets 17Ah out of, I'd call that a fair advantage to the BB. Its advantage extends further due to its better Np and lower Ri. At ~60A the BB still has 10.9Ah while the Panasonic is down to 6.72Ah. The 28Ah version appears to be a much better unit, with a Np of 1.106 compared to the 17 Ah's of 1.215. That should make the 28Ah version perform much better, but its over weight for what I'm looking at currently.

    Ok, you got me there. The place where I believe everyone was buying $40 BB EVP20-12's seems to have dried up, they no longer show them at all. (http://shop.electricross.ihoststudio.com/). Agreed also on the web pricing, just using it as a preliminary data point. Mostly trying to find the best batteries first, then try to find which ones of those I can find the best deal on. I'm probably going to have to give some preference to the Gruber GPS batteries even though they're probably not the best, but they are local. Still waiting to get specs on the correctly sized ones from the manufacturer.

    Good call, I had missed that one I had only seen the UB12180 which is nothing special and the UB12260 which is too heavy and still not great. The UB12220 has a much better Np and still reasonable weight.

    Here are my best performers so far, based on the previously mentioned calc method. This is probably sort of a worse case condition, a constant ~60A (really constant 14.4kW) discharge. So far I'm only really looking at batteries that get me into a 250-300 lb pack.

    Battery-------------kWheff--------Wh/lb------kWh/cuft
    BB EVP20-12--------2.50----------8.71---------1.55
    CSB GP12170-------2.52----------10.4---------1.55
    UB12220 ------------3.06----------11.7---------1.87
    MK ES20-12C -------2.63----------9.04---------1.63
    Yuasa NPX-80-------2.81----------9.70---------1.74
    Tempest TH1295W -2.79----------9.29---------1.72
    Genesis G16EP------2.55----------9.45---------1.55
    Pan LC-X1228P------4.32----------8.86---------1.64 -- *486.8 lbs

    and a few of the worst.....

    Battery-------------kWheff--------Wh/lb------kWh/cuft
    Odyssey PC680-----1.99----------6.46---------1.14
    UB12180 ------------1.67----------7.04---------1.03
    UB12260 ------------2.63----------7.29---------1.00 -- *361.6 lbs
    CSB EVX 12170-----1.31----------5.23---------0.80
    Pan LC-RD1217P----1.52----------5.29---------0.94
    Pan LC-X12220P----1.93----------6.66---------1.19
    PS12180-------------1.80----------7.14---------1.10
    Rhino SLA 17-12----1.68----------6.32---------1.04

    I guess the next step is to start paring down the good list based on price, life expectancy, and internal resistance (to minimize sag under load).

    Rob

    <NOTE> The purpose of this calculation is to have a fair comparison of the performance of these batteries under load. In reality the voltage will erode as the battery is discharged, accelerating the discharge. Its also pretty unrealistic that you would run the pack from full to empty all in one go. There will probably be periods of light loading, where all the batteries will perform better, and rest/regen periods where the battery voltage will recover somewhat. This complicates the process of trying to turn this calculation into an absolute representation of range. I do believe however that the relative trends will hold though. A battery that does better in this worst case simulated test (assuming the numbers its based on are good) should result in longer range in the real world. At least, thats the theory :rolleyes:
     
  7. GripperDon

    GripperDon New Member

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    CHEAP

    Thats one great looking unit. As you know the Altima and the Camry hybrids are essentially identical. (some minor differences in the ICE's. I bet that your Prius system would work in a Camry ? What do you think ? If so I could maybe streatch the application to the Altima.

    If these are possible I am very interested in buying one of your units for my Altima. Sure the range would be different but still a heck of a lot farther than I can EV it now. Comments.

    PS I did know the plug system only recharged your added Pb batteries, Thats not what I wanted to do I wanted to recharge those little tiney OEM batteries.
     
  8. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gripper @ Sep 28 2007, 02:22 AM) [snapback]518895[/snapback]</div>
    I would love to expand this project to include other hybrids and if I have the time and the "dime," I would. You don't need an EV button to make the PHEV system work you just need to match the pack voltage and set up the correct programming to parallel the two packs as needed.

    There is no reason we should not be able to do this on a Camry. Do you know what the nominal pack voltage is on a Camry?

    By the way I just finished Darren's low power cables last night.

    [attachmentid=11822]

    They are made to be installed from the board first. Then a service loop is put in so you can lift the board out of the box if needed or to repair old cables if needed. Then once everything is in place a heat gun is used to shrink the wire wrap on the cables. This is done after so they stay more flexible for the install.
     

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  9. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Oct 2 2007, 02:29 PM) [snapback]520449[/snapback]</div>
    Very nice work! Those look great. I'm hoping to be able to come out to Austin to see or even help with the install, but I haven't sprung the idea on the SO yet as shes been out of town. I'd really like to see one of these done before I jump into mine. When that time comes I'll definitely be interested in buying some pre-made bits and pieces from you if they are going to be available.

    Rob
     
  10. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    Yes, I will sell pre-made parts for those not wanting to do it themselves. However, it is important that everyone know, I will share advice if you want to do a PHEV conversion for free. After getting to know many other modders on PC, I know there are many out there capable of doing this modification. I am working on making this modification 100% reversible so if you want to sell your car but keep your PHEV stuff, you can. ;)

    Three things I am working on is the project box in the trunk. How do I mount it safely without haveing to drill holes. Do I just mount to every bolt hole back there? <_<

    Second is we need a reversible bumper plug. The fact is Ron Gremban has one. It is a retractable coord reel that comes from Sears. No hole has to be made for that now. B)

    Third. How do we mount the Can-View screen that is needed for the 2006 and above Prius so it can be removed without a trace. B)

    Also, as I have said, I have found a source for the OEM fan connectors so that part of the conversion is now plug and play. B)
     
  11. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Sep 25 2007, 05:26 AM) [snapback]517323[/snapback]</div>

    Just curious, why the interest in this particular line? By my numbers they look inferior to the BB EVP, and even the CSB GP line in every sense except maybe cycle life. Better cycle life is obviously good, but higher price rubs a lot of that benefit out. Here's what I'm calculating and how, maybe I'm doing something wrong?

    Rob
    [/b][/quote]

    Wow, I guess I haven't been checking here lately.

    I don't have the calculations at the moment, but probably most of your calculations are right. The statement about cycle life vs. price is obviously a focus. The EVX line is supposed to be designed specifically for "efficient discharges in cyclical applications" according to CSB. And while both of us have done calculations, we don't have the "real-world" results. However, it seems that some of the generic batteries which were not designed for such applications may look OK at first calculations, but might not be able to meet those claims when put to the test. And the EVX line might not either, the true lifespan of a battery is so variable and the battery makers use their best numbers of course.

    If you approach it saying I only have $X to spend, it may be better to get a cheaper battery that wouldn't be discharged as deeply as an expensive battery. However, if you try to maximize the bang for your buck you will probably be better off spending extra at the beginning and getting good batteries which will outlive the cheaper batteries.
     
  12. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Battery box question:

    Is there a reason that everyone seems to be going with a full sealed type box? I would think an aluminum angle iron design with bracing and strapping across each battery set would provide similar mechanical strength in an accident, at substantial weight savings?

    Possible concerns I can think of are:

    1. Battery rupture in an accident.
    2. Battery venting of hydrogen gas.

    For 1, I was under the impression that AGMs had virtually no leakage when broken. The acid is absorbed into a matting, and not floating around as in a wet cell, or gel cell.

    For 2, Am I right in thinking that hydrogen venting of VRLA batteries occurs only during severe over charging? Is there any way this can happen when you are not parked and plugged in? I am assuming when charging its wise to keep the vehicle partially open and ventilated, as the BEV conversion folks usually do? If the goal is to try and seal the battery compartment, would it not be easier to try and create some sort of gasket seal around the load floor, rather than creating a solid metal box?

    Rob
     
  13. mjms2b

    mjms2b MJ Green

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    I'm impressed, WOW!!!!
     
  14. claytonsuch

    claytonsuch New Member

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    Cheap,

    My name is Clayton, and I am a mechanical engineering student at the University of Texas at Austin, I am currently converting my uncle's 04 Prius to a PHEV.

    So far I have purchased, the EV button/kit, CAN-View V4+, Lilliput screen GL701-NPCT. I am in the process of installing these items. This thread has been a wonderful source of how-to information -- Thank you for all your documentation efforts!

    I plan on creating a website documenting my conversion process. I am taking picture of my screen install right now -- I took the dremel to map holder -- so my process is no longer completely reversible.

    I am considering going with the PiPrius i.e (using the Manzanita Micro charger) method versus the Prius+ method that you have chosen. I would also like to use a different battery chemistry than PbA -- was thinking of purchasing 3 used stock NiMH and stringing the modules together the way Norm, from hybrid-interfaces, did.

    I would like to hear your thought on PiPrius vs. Prius+ methods, and how easy would it be to do the Prius+ methods with a chemistry other than PbA?

    I will definitely see you at the Maker fair!

    -Clayton
     
  15. benighted

    benighted New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(claytonsuch @ Oct 5 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]522050[/snapback]</div>
    Wow. Nice first post.
     
  16. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Oct 5 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]521987[/snapback]</div>
    The picture you see is before I added venting on the side of the box. The whole point was the angle iron method works great, but it takes a long time to do. My box is not finished yet but I have some improvements I want to make to it. I like the whole box because I feel like it is stronger and I am most afraid of a rear end collision that would send twenty, 14.5 lbs, bricks of death right at my head. My second concern is that the steel box I had was just so heavy, I felt saving 50 lbs was worth going to aluminum. Really, these boxes could be made anywhere, by anyone; there are metal shops all over the country, who could design in all the safety you could ever want.

    I'm just trying to make it easer for the guy who wants a PHEV but not all the hassle of making the box, or locating all the parts, or making the cables.

    The control board runs fans on the box, also the fans at the vents located under the fabric sides that blow into the real wheel wells, and also the OEM battery fan while charging.

    Box fans keep the PHEV batteries cool
    Vent fans keep air flowing over the charger and out of the car
    OEM fan keeps helps reduce the residual thermal heat build up of it’s normal use during the day. (We don’t charge the OEM battery, as having a SOC to high would prevent you from entering EV mode.) The OEM battery is kept in it’s normal operating range the entire time.


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(claytonsuch @ Oct 5 2007, 09:42 PM) [snapback]522050[/snapback]</div>
    Yes, I will see you at the Maker Faire. I hope to teach anyone who comes how to do this conversion for themselves. The more of these we get on the road the beter chance we have of someone actually making them in a factory. If that happens we can start clean up our air and water a little bit.

    I can't speak about the Mazanita Micro Charger other then to say, it works too. And as far as NiMH, I have been reading and learning about Nilar and what those NiMH batteries can do. They may even be better then lithium when you look at power vs. weight and live vs. cost. Also, They are here now, you can buy them today. I personally like the way Horacio's car came out. He kept all the back floor space. This is all still experimental, but I'm having a blast working on it.
     
  17. kammssss

    kammssss Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Oct 5 2007, 09:55 PM) [snapback]522097[/snapback]</div>
    Hey Cheap!,

    That was one kool project! I just finished reading almost all of the posting regarding your PHEV. You got me thinking of doing one myself. I got some questions:

    1. Can I just use a 216v (rated at 2.1kw--4.2kw at 15--30 amps) battery? I just want to parallel this to the OEM battery. Shouldn't this help?

    2. Do I really need all that CAN-view stuff? I have an 05 Prius. Wouldn't the OEM computer just pick up the voltage, combine it, use it, and then broadcast the level on the MFD?

    3. Did you ever consider--or has anyone consider--using the batteries from the a123system company. They claim to have some advance batteries--and they cost a pretty penny!

    Any feedback from anyone would be great! I am not an expert in electronics, but I was a generator techician in the Army--I am use to playing with high voltage (400KW). I plan to use the a123system's batteries, without paying 12K for it (Hymotion's price). Thanks everyone!
     
  18. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kammssss @ Nov 21 2007, 05:50 PM) [snapback]542638[/snapback]</div>


    If you find a source for the A123 Lion's at discount price, meaning <$5,000.00 and available with out being an eternity, please share the information with all of us.
     
  19. ilusnforc

    ilusnforc Member

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  20. kammssss

    kammssss Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mrbigh @ Nov 21 2007, 03:53 PM) [snapback]542675[/snapback]</div>
    Hey boss, so what do you think of my first and second question?

    1. Can I just use a 216v (rated at 2.1kw--4.2kw at 15--30 amps) battery? I just want to parallel this to the OEM battery. Shouldn't this help?

    2. Do I really need all that CAN-view stuff? I have an 05 Prius. Wouldn't the OEM computer just pick up the voltage, combine it, use it, and then broadcast the level on the MFD?

    Thanks in advance!