natural gas hybride prius

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Flying White Dutchman, Mar 3, 2008.

  1. Eoin

    Eoin Active Member

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    I wish we had natural gas on our street. We have to heat with oil at $4.00 per gallon. There are many people without access to natural gas.
     
  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...wonder why there is not more effort to get gas out to the folks in the NE with oil. Was lucky my homes in NJ now VA did finally get gas lines run to them but many still seem to have oil.
     
  3. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    Major bottleneck....TAXES.

    As in, how to collect.
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    There is lack of distribution pipeline.
    EIA - Natural Gas Pipeline System - Northeast Region

    If we are serious about getting off oil, it is worthwhile to Tax that fuel oil, but give subsidies to convert homes to natural gas heating and help building pipelines to get natural gas to areas are not serviced.

    The northeast states represent a strong voting block that does not want to fairly tax heating oil. Giveaways to this lobby and coal derailed clinton's carbon tax.
     
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  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    2 NG threads running simultaneously. Whether it's NG for hybrids, or all cars, we gotta up production and consider the consequences of fracking out a whole lot more NG. It's going to be a long century. Maybe we can figure out where to go for non-carcenogenic drinking water and crop irrigation somewhere down the road ... say in 40 years or so. I'm certain that once we all start breaking out with all sorts of unidentifiable lesions we'll find motivation to search for some kind of solution.

    :eek:hwell:

    .
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That seems like you are quite distorting the issue. We are talking about substituting natural gas for oil and coal. When compared you need to look at the consequences. Now some want to turn amish or wahabbi and stop people from using energy altogether. They belong to the jimmy carter environmental movement of despair.

    My running coach's charity tries to get clean drinking water to people that do not have it in africa. My mom said when she was a little girl they x-rayed her feet when she tried on shoes:eek: The world is far from perfect, and fracking is far from the most pressing health or environmental issue. There are a host of identifiable problems without dreaming up new ones for conversion to cleaner energy sources. Adding wind, biogas, and solar to an increased natural gas grid helps clean up the coal pollution. CNG, hybrid, phev, and bev help reduce the oil scarcity, politics, costs, and pollution. :D

    I believe the old men in the environmental movement that simply want us to reduce, are actually harming the environment, but pushing people out of good solutions because they are not perfect.
     
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Last time I checked, NG doesn't care if it's burned for auto fuel - used to run a refrigerator ... used for making electricity, or split for its hydrogen atom. An alt fuel is an alt fuel. One thread specifies use in cars, one thread is talking use in lots of things. What'd I miss. It makes a difference? Maybe you're not old enough to remember 1960's & 70's florescent colored waves lapping the shores of some of the great lakes ... or rivers that could, and actually did, catch on fire? Stupid environmentalists ... they made much to do about nothing regarding those little issues too. After all ... there are always more pressing issues. Hey, let's all look at world hunger! Um that's called a distracter. It's what GM would do when folks complained about their horrible mpg's. "well what about OTHER manufacturers". It's what kids do when they get reprimanded for hitting. "he did it too ... he did it 1st".

    And the response of those back in the 1960's & 70's who didn't want to bare the cost of dealing with those kinds of effluent pollution they'd caused? Similar to this;
    " ... Now some want to turn amish ..." etc etc etc. Sorry, but this is not a black or white world. There are other solutions besides all or nothing. There are other solutions besides branding the differing view as a tree hugger, or amish, or jimmy carter just so they'll shut up about real challenges, that only get worse when not addressed.

    Or maybe you think that VP Cheney had no real reason (via legislation) to try to keep secret, the numerous types of poisons that the gas industry uses in conjunction with pumping tons and tons of pressure into the ground (yes, the ground where well water comes from) in order to explode rock formations into releasing gas. Sure, he had no reason for keeping the process exempt from the clean water & clean air acts. I'm sure Cheney would would be perfectly happy to handle the opponents with a quick Amish label ... although I prefer Mennonite :)D) , if you gotta go there. Sheesh - god forbid anyone throw out a caveat over highly toxic and unregulated (although us cry babies are finally making headway) processes. Like I mentioned in the alternate NG thread ... NG aint a silver bullet. The more NG gets used, the more it's 'little' issues will quickly become bigger.
    .
     
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  8. SlowTurd

    SlowTurd I LIKE PRIUS'S

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  9. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    In Maine there's are plans to add a gas pipeline spur that would serve central Maine towns and cities from Richmond to Madison. At moment the area is oil, propane or solid fuels.

    Of course, part of laying the pipeline involves trying to get all the towns on the route to make special TIF zones, because apparently market forces aren't good enough when promoting one Canadian fossil fuel over another Canadian fossil fuel.
     
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  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It seems like you are an old poluter lecturing me because you are ignorant. READ A BOOK. If you can't understand how using cng or electricity (powered partially by ng) is an alternative to oil, you do not understand much. If you don't like how wind and natural gas are replacing coal and oil on the grid and in heating, I would say you are asking us to go back to worse days. Don't go there.


    What a bald faced lie. You old folks that screwed over my generation are trying to lecture us because you know better. Because you made a mess that we need to clean up! Sit down. Shut up. And talk to me after you understand what you did wrong. Only then will I listen to a word about how you would do it better. Don't tell me you did a good job. Your generation royally screwed up!
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I'm sorry, but if there was a point in the above rambling, it got missed ...
    I must have hit a nerve accidentally. Peace & love. btw ... Industry that pollutes is not generational. It's just industry ... not 'a generation' ... new or old. I'd hate to think newer industries (like fracking) will ever attempt to stand on a childish alabi that, "... well 'they' polluted first ... so who are 'they' to try and warn anybody about present day industry pollution". Nope - never saw the power lobby argue that one in congressional records. If alibis like that worked as logic, no one could ever try and do things better ... because by the nature of any 'wrong-doing' ... wrongs get done first ... then they are either righted or not ... correct? No need to get hot. I do have to apologize for missing the nexus regarding, "wind farms versus 'stuff on your roof' (?)" ... is that some kind of a "green-ness" pee'ing contest statement? None of us here need to validate their self, just for the sake of forum dialogue. Our differing views are hardly worth getting indignant over. As for your great environmental accomplishments of "getting hundreds of megawatts built" ... that's great ... but not only does that NOT invalidate another's environmental concerns ... when you polish your own apple (especially for the purpose to 'prove' your view is better) it really takes away from what ever you did/do. It certainly doesn't further the dialogue of running mass amounts of NG in the Prius, or hybrids, or lots of other cars.
    :focus:
     
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  12. Erikon

    Erikon Active Member

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    All energy industries will try to extract the product in the cheapest manner possible, be it oil, coal, NG or nuclear! It's vital to point out the the harmful effects in the hopes those industries will be forced to implement the safeguards and cleaner practices they well know are possible. Yet it always seems to require disasters to get better regulations and a grudging compliance! Now that NG is on the cusp of major acceptance can we expect a better result from that industry? Doubt it!
     
  13. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    It's a rare business that does anything for altruistic reasons. If they make a habit of it, they generally get bought-out or driven out of business. It's up to us, as consumers and voters, to set the rules of the game to force business to behave in a socially acceptable manner.

    Tom
     
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...EPA is studying nat gas fracking and plans to come out with report soon, I believe. In USA we depend on EPA to set the rules, and then the companies follow the rules. The problem is lots of gaps, the EPA only makes rules in the areas Congress asks them to do so. So for example, 60-Minutes discussion of coal ash disposal with EPA Admin Lisa Jackson, she explained the EPA does not regulate that. In general mining and extraction has had exemptions due to the belief it is too expensive to mine if tailings are considered a regulated waste.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Part of the reason of the rant, as it is most rants is to make a point and to be humorous while doing it. Often when these things are simply stated they are ignored.

    Polluting is indeed generational. When the older generation lectures the newer one they should understand most of us learned about these things in school. I also have seen the types of pollution that happened in the 60's and 70's in America by visiting china. Dumping all that waste because it was cheaper for your generation does not mean that my generation does not have better solutions. If yours have good solutions, I'm all ears, but I don't think there is any validity to the older generation being wiser when it comes to these things. The environmental damage of CARB forcing MBTE into fuel is much higher than the damage that fracking has caused. perspective is important. All that coal power that was built and kept continues to be that gift of pollution that keeps on giving. Those toxic landfills, are they the fault of those that are younger now, or those that made the decisions?

    Now let's get down to the specifics of natural gas and fracking. Fracking started in the 1940s, not in the 2000s. Without fracking Jimmy Carter would have been absolutely correct, the US would be running out of natural gas by now. His solution to switch to coal seems short sited and tone deaf to pollution. California right now imports over 80% of their natural gas. Without this it would be much more expensive, and would take a great deal more energy, as some would be liquified in foreign countries, probably harvested by fracking there, then shipped here and put in pipelines at the port. The solution is not to ignore the energy we have and move our pollution to other countries. I am all for smart regulations that make fracking less environmentally damaging. I do not want these done in a vacuum though, coal and oil need these regulations as well. Currently most anti-fracking regulations are pushed without addressing the higher environmental impacts of coal mining and off shore oil drilling. Definitely getting a greater portion of power from renewables is part of the solution, but you can't heat our homes easily with renewables, unless you are readdy to have a huge logging industry displacing natural lands.

    Now when it comes to tailpipe emissions and the prius, they are really low. Putting natural gas in the cars does not make them much lower. I prefer adding bigger packs to these cars and making them phevs and bevs. While doing this I fully understand there is fracking pollution going into some of the battery packs. When it comes to bigger vehicles like delivery trucks and city busses, powering them with cng makes a lot of sense from a pollution point of view. Better yet a plug in hybrids run with natural gas. Certainly while pushing for plug ins here, I have to be friendly with those wanting to convert some vehicles to cng, otherwise it would be hypocritical of me. All the while we can push for wind to charge the future plug ins at night.

    No apple polishing intended. Some of us have much greater results by consensus building with energy providers, than being simply against fossil fuel. We can learn from the old mistakes, even if we did not make them. Putting on a sweater and turning down the thermostat has borne poor results. The ideas in the 70s seem as cartoonist as the older duck and cover videos as protection from a nuclear bomb.
     
  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    AG- I resemble that remark. But you have totally fooled me. With your knowledge and aptitude and worldly travels, I thought you were my age. I hope you could possibly serve in government to help solve the problems. However, we reserve the right to influence your opinions.

    PS_ that dumping happened the generation before me. Except for trash which is still getting dumped.
     
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  17. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    in that case your doing the same.
    get out of your prius and on a bike
    you just slowing it down maybe but no real long term differents
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I am definitely adding to the imported oil problem driving my car:D The emissions are fairly low though, so I am not doing the damage that say building a coal power plant in the late 70s has done:confused: Definitely a long term difference. Eventually I want to switch to a phev. I travel for work often and this also uses up fuel and causes pollution.

    I do bike to work when I can. I sweat a great deal in the texas heat, making it impractical to do it most of the year, since I don't have a shower there. I do try to work with the city council to make bike commuting safer and more practical, and am active in two of the biking groups.

    As I said, IMHO it is impractical to get off fossil fuel quickly. We can be pragmatic and use them in a more environmentally sensitive way. By restricting our choice to use less, we end up with things like the continuation of ancient high polluting inefficient coal that keeps running because of a lack of compromise. I would like to see better fracking, not less domestic gas production. I would also like to see the most polluting coal plants closed down and replaced with wind and natural gas. Why not use natural gas in trucks instead of using it to harvest the oil sands?
     
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  19. movingforward

    movingforward Member

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    I can't believe one would even argue on the insanity of fracking, I guess you don't live in the area that's being fracked? Have you lived in Alberta close to a sour gas well and know what that is like? There is a crap load of NG out there, the spot price is at all time low as we speak.

    So, nobody has mention it yet, anybody successfully turned their Prius into a bi-fuel (gasoline/petro & NG) sipping mode of transportation? At $2200 (whether true or not) I rather opt for PHEV aftermarket kit instead. How safe is having that NG tank in the spare wheel well area anyway? Are we going to get the Ford Pinto experience in a rear end collision?
     
  20. Rybold

    Rybold globally warmed member

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    All of you have brought up lots of great points in this thread. Personally, I am waiting for more environmental impact reports to come out on fracking and pollution of ground water and the underlying geological effects of the local earthquakes that it causes. I'm all for displacing oil imports from evil foreign government regimes with domestic natural gas, but only if it doesn't pollute our groundwater!

    Do these "1000 trillion" cubic feet of natural gas in the United States require fracking to extract, or can they be extracted without fracking?

    By the way, Canadian NG may be headed straight to Asia:
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-02/petronas-plans-canadian-acquisition-topping-5-billion.html

    PS: Interesting article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ce-after-all/2012/04/01/gIQA3zJjpS_story.html
     
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