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Need help, reversed polarity installing new aux battery

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by DMAndy, Aug 28, 2020.

  1. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    A different day, different readings. I do not know what is going on, I might be doing something obvious wrong.

    I have pulled all the fuses that showed power with the key not even in the ignition slot. The IG1 relay is also pulled. There is still a reading of above 12V at one leg of all those fuses.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, which one is it, and which leg? And what's the reference point (where is the other probe of your meter, when one is in this fuse slot).

    Making sense of weird readings has to start with knowing the specifics of the weird readings. We're at a disadvantage not being there to watch what you're doing. Pictures or even an occasional video might not be outlandish.
     
  3. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I still have the strong feeling that this was originally a very basic repair that has gotten seriously over complicated. It has gotten to the point now, that there's really no telling what the heck is going on with the car due to everything that has been pulled out/replaced/etc. I can't begin to describe how many times I've seen fuses get pulled and then put back into wrong slots. Troubleshooting this via a forum is getting to the point of uselessness.

    Have you ever helped someone via phone, had a very basic step to perform, person swears up and down 10 times they performed it exactly as asked, and then after 2 hours of BS, 'ohh, you meant do it this way?'. It's sooooo hard to troubleshoot remotely.
     
  4. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    I have marked the legs where I get a reading of 12.2V below. I put the red probe in the slot and the black one to a metal part behind the fuse box. I will take a photo this afternoon. I think that should be right, because some fuses show power and others don't.



    upload_2020-9-4_13-32-29.png

    2 M/HTR 15 Outside rear view mirror heater
    3 WIP 30 Windshield wiper
    4 RR WIP 15 Rear wiper
    5 WSH 20 Washer
    6 ECU-IG 7.5 Smart key system, power windows, touch screen, electric power steering, theft deterrent system
    7 GAUGE 10 Gauge and meter, backup lights, emergency flasher, power windows
    8 OBD 7.5 On-board diagnosis system
    18 A/C (HTR) 10 Air conditioning system
    19 FR DOOR 20 Power windows

    I can only imagine how frustrating this must be for you guys. I will take photos and do videos where I can.
     
  5. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    I completely get where you're coming from, I have on occasion tried to troubleshoot people's computers from afar. Not fun.
     
  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Yes, I have, often. My favorite was somebody who swore up and down there was no message showing up on the monitor to read to me over the phone. I asked what was showing on the monitor. "Nothing at all." I asked "if you find the brightness knob, turn it all the way down and then back up, does anything you see on the monitor change?" Got my ear snarled off for being condescending. "OK", says I, "I'll be down to your office in a few."

    When I got there I looked at the monitor and said "next time this happens, if you read me that message there, I can fix it right away" and the person said "oh that? I didn't think that was what you meant, that line is always there."

    But—and this is important—it doesn't always go that badly. And even the cases where it does are skill builders for future cases where it doesn't.
     
    #86 ChapmanF, Sep 4, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  7. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    I love your attitude, ChapmanF
     
  8. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    OK, for the photos:

    IG1 Relay out

    IMG_20200904_152318.jpg
    Again:

    upload_2020-9-4_15-37-8.png

    Temporary 100A DC/DC fuse solution:
    upload_2020-9-4_15-38-24.png

    Fuse box and ground location. X marks the spot I put the black probe at.
    upload_2020-9-4_15-41-1.png

    And again:
    upload_2020-9-4_15-42-39.png

    The reading:
    upload_2020-9-4_15-43-42.png

    I have tried to take a photo of exactly where I have the probes documenting an actual reading, but because of the awkward placement of the fuse box, I was unable to.
     
  9. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    bodyecu2.jpg
    This what I am looking at. Could it be a blown body ECU?

    Edit: I can't seem to upload a full resolution version of this.
     
    #89 DMAndy, Sep 4, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Squishing some of those diagram bits together just for ease of reading:

    jb.png

    I don't think that I suspect the Body ECU quite yet, just because I see zero ways for it to produce the observations you're reporting. If you have removed the IG1 relay plus fuses 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 18, there is nothing left to be supplying that particular bus with power; there is no trace of it that continues down the diagram to the body ECU.

    There is the slight mystery of 1J pin 8 (lower left). It is odd that they have an unfused IG1 tap coming out to the connector, and my guess is if you examine connector 1J you will find no wire at position 8. Probably they brought that out as a diagnostic test point. (It would give you a place you could tap in for ignition-switched power, by buying the right repair terminal and adding it in position 8, but you'd have to bring your own fuseholder and fuse. You might prefer adding a fuse in the unused slot that seems to come out at 1N(11).

    If there were something connected at 1J(8), it would be able to supply voltage you would see on that bus, even with the relay and all those fuses out. But I am guessing there is nothing connected there.

    I struggle a little to keep my bearings in your photos though. When I look at this one, I feel like I'm seeing the IG1 relay removed, but fuses 3, 4, 5, 7, and 18 in place, which I hadn't expected:

    [​IMG]

    Then when I look at this one, it is disorienting; there seems to be a relay where IG1 would go, but it looks more like the flasher. Was this one taken with the selfie camera, and mirrored?

    [​IMG]

    I'm going out on a limb and saying yes, because I see what look like 12 amp fuses, and I didn't know they made that size. ;)

    Anyway, in neither picture does it look like the removed fuses are the ones I expected. Am I all turned around?
     
  11. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    I suspect I am an idiot. You're always the last one to find out. I will now go and put the fuses in the right order and report back on what happened.
     
  12. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    Well, today I have learned that I am in fact an idiot and that the Prius, and probably other cars too, work much better when the fuses are in the right places in the fuse box. Who would have thought?

    I have OBD, MFD and dashboard lights! On the downside, I do have the red triangle and the MFD saying the transmission lock is on.

    I want to thank everybody for their contributions and especially ChapmanF for his patience with me.

    I should now be able to use Techstream and figure out why I get the red triangle, right? I feel like I am out of the woods.
     
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  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    (y) That is exactly the next angle I would pursue.
     
  14. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    That was right on the money TMR-JWAP.
     
  15. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    Sadly, it took me a laptop to figure out that I forgot to connect a wire to the HV ECU. Plugged it in, the engine runs, everything seems to be OK.

    In the end, the only thing the reverse polarity caused is a blown DC/DC fuse. Everything else was down to my expert vehicle repair abilities. I did learn a lot in the process and fortunately didn't spend a while lot of money in the process. Incidentally, does anybody in England need a an Engine ECU?

    Again, I want to thank everybody, but especially ChapmanF.
     
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  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I wouldn't be too sad about that ... it probably told you straight off what it wasn't seeing, and saved you trying to desperately retrace every move you've made in the last week.

    So TMR-JWAP and I were both right. :) Yes, sometimes a bunch of fuses can be put back shuffled, and yes, troubleshooting remotely is still possible anyway. Surprising how often just another pair of eyes will spot an issue.

    It also didn't look like you just randomly shuffled the fuses. When I looked at the fuse ratings and where they were placed, it seemed you might have put them all back in what looked like the right spots in a mirrored selfie-camera image. It's probably just as well we have a PriusChat thread for that now, because I can easily imagine you not being the last person that ever happens to.
     
  17. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I'm really glad to hear things are moving in a positive direction. A resounding "Well done" to @ChapmanF for questioning the images and recognizing something looked off. My brain hurt (and always does) after looking at upside-down photos, even when I take them myself. And he's absolutely right about second sets.
     
  18. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    Yes, @ChapmanF is a star.

    It might be useful for others to read the whole story and the aftermath, so here goes:

    The ordeal began with it becoming obvious that the aux battery needed changing. There were the usual signs of it going flat in a few days, dim dashboard lights, etc. It lasted 4 years, and my understanding is that that's how long aux batteries last in a Prius.

    I proceeded to order a new battery online. Because of the particularities of how and how much, or how little, the Prius used that battery, I figured there was no point in getting an expensive one, so went for the cheapest one I could fine, a Hankook. It was visibly smaller than the Bosch I had in there, but didn't pay much attention to that. Because I am lazy, I started jumping the car from the new battery, every time I wanted to use the car.

    One afternoon, I was walking by the car and figured, I might as well change the batteries, it's not a big job. Upon putting the new battery in its place, I failed to notice that the polarities were the wrong way around compared to the original battery. That's when the reverse polarity even happened.

    It blew the 100A DC/DC fuse, and a couple of other ones in the engine bay. Those should have been changed, and that would have been the end of the story.

    Instead, I wanted to check all the fuses. Not realizing you can actually do it with the fuses in place, I pulled them all first. Then I put them back, one row the right way, the other row the mirror image way. The car wouldn't start. Realizing my mistake, I took out the ones I put in the right way, and changed them to the mirror image way.

    I went to the near by Toyota dealership to enquire about the price of a fusible link and ask them what if fixing that doesn't fix the car. The mentioned the ECU. I also asked on a pay site, and the guy said if there is no OBD, it's the ECU. I promptly ordered one. Fortunately it wasn't very expensive.

    I took out the old ECU, inspected it, it looked OK. After days on here, I put the ECU back, and put the inside front of the car back together.

    Having immersed myself in automotive wiring deeper than I had ever thought I would, on @ChapmanF's suggestion that I take photos of what I am doing, he noticed the fuses were in the wrong way around. Put everything back together, and the car runs.

    Now I worked on it today and there is no way I could find to install the new batter. So, I went back to my old ways of jumpstarting the car from the new battery. I figured I'll drive around the neighborhood and I also stood in line at the recycling center for about an hour, never turning the car off.

    I drove a but further, once all kinds of warning lights came on, with an annoying beep. I was hoping I could make it home. The red triangle came on. The car started slowing down and would not speed up. I desperately looked for somewhere I could stop. I managed to pull half the car over, the end still on the road. I wanted to turn the emergency blinkers on, they didn't work. I noticed that the clock doesn't work either. I must have put the MFD in wrong.

    I was panicking a bit, but figured, I could try hooking up the new battery to the old battery with jumper cables. That got me home. My theory is that the old battery have deteriorated so much now, that it started losing power and the Prius thought that would lead to no good, so just shut down instead.
     
  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Hmm, so that's where things stand now, eh?

    Cycling back around to some usual early question for such incidents:

    Do you have a battery charger you can use to get a good long charge into either or both of those batteries?

    Can you get the car into READY again, and

    If you can, what voltage do you read at the battery posts while in READY?
     
  20. DMAndy

    DMAndy Junior Member

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    I have borrowed a battery charger for a few days over a week ago, so yes, I do have one.

    Yes, after I hooked up the new battery to the car while the old battery is was still installed, it worked as it should.

    I will check in the morning. Are you suspecting it might be something else, like the car not charging the battery, as opposed to the old battery just not holding any charge?