New EV Myths and Facts Page

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by efusco, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. rebenson

    rebenson Member

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    It's always funny reading through a topic and to see how it evolves.

    responding to the article, I agree with ev's and that the media do post negatively. However, this site goes to the other extreme and I think i'm somewhere in the middle.
     
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  2. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    what we still lack is real government support. people say EVs will never become mainstream but we are not even at the level of the cheapest of local pork barrel project pricing so how can you expect to go mainstream?

    now great ideas will succeed on their own but we are not talking about $300 electronic items so it could take a decade and do we really have that much time to wait?

    what would we have in a decade? what would be considered successful? 10% ? 5%? well the latter is what most are thinking and we need it to be more than that but it is easy to see the hesitancy of the consumer and most of it has nothing to do with the major EV stumbling blocks

    what we need is legalization of EVs; ok no one is getting a ticket for driving one but they are not supported. but charging stations are ICE'd on a regular basis and its always the same thing. the business states they wont tow or even ask the offender to move so someone who might need a charge relying on that charging station to be available because they checked their phone and found it to be "available" is now screwed. that will not encourage sales.

    start REQUIRING plugs be available to employees and all new public parking facilities. granted "some" employers are too cheap to spend a dime and requiring them to retrofit an existing structure is something that is not in the cards but requiring plug in stations for new construction should be mandated.

    as for range; well that is probably the toughest "non-issue" i have seen. it is always the same thing. "ya my commute is 20 miles one way, but what if i want to go to grandma's house who lives 100 miles away?" it does not take long to realize this trip is made 3 times a year. and it does not seem to matter to most that the Leaf will work for the other 362 days so i can say i like saving about $60-80 a month in gas. i like saving another $100-200 in "non" maintenance issues. i like the fact that my cost per mile in an EV is not temperature dependent. sure i get less range in winter. but it still does the longest commute (64 miles with 88% freeway) and makes it home

    but saying all that makes no difference to someone who does not have a public charging station within 100 miles of his home or is forced to pay an outrageous price to plug in. but now we have to go after utilities to lower their demand pricing for higher current DC feeds nor does it make a difference to someone who is stuck in a low mileage junker because they cannot afford to upgrade even if they wanted to.

    so we can back into this EV thing or not. we can take a chance on this battery thing, hope something comes along to lower the cost. but even if batteries only get slightly better and slightly cheaper, only one thing is for certain;

    EVs are here to stay and this is eventually where we will be. 3 months before i got my Leaf, we took a two week car trip in the Prius. drove 1300 miles to Disneyland. saw a half dozen items in the area then took the long VERY slow road back up the Pacific Coast. took 4 full days of driving including the twistiest of the curves from Big Sur up. it literally took a full day to drive just over 100 miles. (we did stop a few times) and it will be a treasured family memory talked about for years.

    it could not have been done without gas so the Prius is not going anywhere, it is here to stay for now but that kind of trip, that kind of luxury is simply going to be that. a special thing.
     
  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Glad to hear it. I've never found it to have awful pollution when I have been there, but it consistently gets in the top one or two outside of California for particulate pollution. Outside of cali, Houston seems to lead on bad ozone.
    I'm pretty sure that it doesn't include exploration or service station overhead, but these should be quite small compared to the other numbers.

    Problems with greet are its a assumed cars, but you can plug in real cars with the other figures. If you are doing that, you can also plug in your real grid too. On unhealthy pollutants it doesn't seem to recognize that NOx and SO2 are capped in most of the country and addition of electric cars in these regions will not change these levels. There are quite a few regional differences, and many find problems with projected future power. Certainly a prius on most of the grid will produce less CO2 than a fisker karma. When it comes to a leaf versus a yaris things switch around.:D
     
  4. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...it is a nutty idea to shutdown EPA. American business managers will always reduce costs at all costs. Everyone complains but knows EPA is needed to define the minimum rules in USA. Now then EPA is needed to be the eco-conscience but, at the same time, not take pro-active political positions, like they seem to always do. So that's the rub. Also sometimes EPA over-regulates one guy, and then lets another guy dump crap all over the place. Again this is due to political considerations.

    Pursuant to this thread, EPA seems to favor EV.
     
  5. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I really think all the government needs to do is stop subsidizing gasoline. This will shift the economics enough to create a big demand for EVs and the car companies that refuse to meet the demand will go out of business.

    Somebody posted here on Prius Chat once that he would not consider a Leaf, even though his commute was well within its range, because his daughter was in school farther than 100 miles away, and maybe some day she would have an emergency that required him to get there immediately and maybe his wife would be at work with the gas car.

    There's a mind-set that we need every car to be capable of unlimited driving.

    Note that any kind of emergency requiring immediate assistance would not be handled by a parent 200 miles away, but by local emergency services. But that poster had a strong emotional response connected to a fear that maybe "something" would happen.

    There will always be such people, but a shift in the economics of gas vs electricity would convince the majority of people to change some of their driving to electric, and that would create the market that would drive innovation and infrastructure development.

    I've been driving electric for 5 years and the only charging stations within 100 miles of me were utterly useless 120 volt 15 amp outlets, until Nissan installed one L2 charger that I cannot use anyway. We are not yet at a place where electric will provide 100% of driving for most people, but lots of two-car families could do just fine without public charging.

    Dave: You and I agree on the benefits of electric transportation. I just don't think the government really needs to do much to promote the shift. Just stop subsidizing gas.
     
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  6. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Hear.. Hear.. :cheer2:


    If done on a pubic schedule he economy and people will adapt. And we can remove some of government spending at the same time. I always have fund with that one when chatting with conservatives. I'd much rater have no subsidy for either EV or Oil -- and say that the EV subsidy was only to partially level the playing field and was easier for BUSH to push through than attacking the bigger problem with oil.



    Part of why I, and others, like the Volt.. to have that freedom. For me its not the just the need to drive in an emergency.. The airport is 120-180m R/T (starting at home/work). For work I may have to drive to denver or boulder..180m. My mountain condo is 140 one way (and +5000ft). Tus an Airport run, denver for work or trip to the condo is beyond a leaf. Was looking at Model-S, but to get the 230 needed to do that safely was much more expensive.


    While people could use a second car for the trips beyond an EV, if that other car is an SUV/CUV, the Volt's gas milage is better and often a more efficient choice for long trips (if everyone fits). And then I get the "I can drive to the airport or denver on a moment's notice. (Which seems to be 3-4 times a year).

    The same goes with renting an ICE, which is real hassle as well, but unless the rent something with > 40MPG, the volt will do better on the highway. Not everyone with a EV can have prius at home for long trips.. but if they do, that is even better.


    Totally agree. stop subsidizing gas and the EV's and Hybrids will take off.
     
  7. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Actually, I ran GREET1_2011 using the electric mix of my utility (>66% from coal) for the Passat TDI and Leaf. I used CARB certified emissions data for the pump-to-wheels phase for the Passat (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/volkswagen_pc_a0070301_2d0_u2_diesel.pdf).

    Results...


    (Well-to-wheels emissions - grams/mile)

    Emission...................2012 Passsat TDI...........................2012 Leaf (ZEV)

    HC+NOx.........................0.204............................................0.339
    CO................................0.11..............................................0.08
    PM................................0.045............................................0.546
    SOx...............................0.078............................................0.708
    GHG..............................356...............................................356


    I combined HC and NOx because I factored in the SFTP US06 and SC03 certified emissions for the Passat and those are only given as a combined value. The well-to-pump emissions were adjusted to the fuel economy of the Passat and Leaf according to fueleconomy.gov (since WTP emissions are a factor of consumption).

    I'm not trying to imply that GREET is absolutely accurate in its well-to-wheels emissions estimates, and I'm not making a value judgement about EV technology. I'm just offering an alternative to the procedure presented in the OP.
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I would say that since you are in a cap and trade state for SO2 and NOx adding EVs does not change those levels at all and should be 0. That is one problem with greet. Particulate emissions are loosely tied to this, so marginal numbers should also be much lower. EPA is lowering particulate levels in my state, but I don't think they are in yours. That makes the unhealthy polutants lower in the leaf.

    I don't really have any criticism of the GHG, which appear to be about even. If that is the main goal, to reduce ghg, and grid improvements are not made, then the leaf and pasat seem dead even, better than most cars, a little worse than a prius.
     
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  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Guys,
    I just went through and deleted a bunch of posts from this thread that are overtly political in content. I realize the subject matter and even the commentary in the original post have some political overtones and I'm willing to put up with a certain degree of civil discussion about how current policy was established, but when it starts toward a class discussion and policy decisions by political affiliation it's crossed the line into pure politics and you'll need to have that discussion in the political forum.

    Please avoid further political discussion in this and other open forums.
     
  10. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    AG - you're absolutely correct...Tennessee is in the "Clean Air Interstate Rule" pact, and using average U.S. emissions wouldn't be valid for my specific location.

    What's embarrassing is that I had training in the emission implications of CAIR shortly after it was promulgated (2008?), and I promptly forget that there is now a discontinuity in emission requirements across the nation.
     
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  11. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Evan- Normally I hold back (if possible) on the EV threads because I have learned so much on Prius Chat last 12 months, that I now have the answers I personally need to understand EV. But I also learned we have new people coming and going, so there will unavoidably be re-hash of points. Also this thread was at "sticky" status so I assumed this meant in particular we needed to speak up on this one if we had some different perspective.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Its perfectly normal to look at a model and think it actually covers you. But that is why its important to talk about limitations of models.

    Here is the cair web page. You can select your state and find out how much emissions will drop by 2015. These emissions are independent of adding plug ins to the grid. That means that in Tennesee, plug-ins will contribute 0g of NOx and SO2 marginal pollutants from electrical production to the air. Particulate pollution is also likely 0.
    EPA: Clean Air Interstate Rule - Where You Live
     
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  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Beyond Myth & Fact is the "Humor" element:
    Below, jalopnik satirizes Tesla - Charting both real versions and speculated models. Jalpnik is quick to bash EV's but in this case, in spite of that, I do enjoy the funny so I can look beyond their usual shtick.

    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17z0inbkvrvxkjpg/original.jpg
    .
     
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  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Wow no thread additions for about ½ a decade. I guess we must have everything ev - dialed in now.

    Another little known fact - when temp's get down at or below -17°c - - 0°f ... charging capability goes to zero. Here's a pretty well documented example of the phenomena & what to do to overcome. You can start just before the 4-minute mark if short on time.


    .
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    I wanted to post some questions but didn't see an option at YouTube:
    • "camper mode"?
    • "range mode"?
    • Was there a 'parking' fee at his SuperCharger versus just plug-in all night?
    I like the trailer and understand why it needed to be disconnected.

    Thanks,
    Bob Wilson
     
  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Sorry for the late reply ... it may be for the best. In the time transpiring between the video I posted, Tesla sent a software update, creating an actual camper mode - meaning a feature that many tesla camper folk use for camping. Prior to a ½yr or so ago, if you wanted to maintain hot/cool temps all night (or power a trailer), you had to put the car in neutral, set the parking brake & turn off headlights. But the marker lights (& in essence, the rest of the car) would run all night. Ie, a hack.
    Owners asked for a true camping mode. Now, you can run temp controls & trailer power w/out using the hack. Most beneficial, you can leave your pet in the car & temps will ('till SOC drops below 20% - sending a warning to your smart phone) maintain/continue temp control if the car's plugged in, in perpetuity .
    Range mode is another minimal feature, that campers - using the old hack would employ, whereby cooling, heat was limited so that both would not ramp up super fast to the desired temps. Also, range mode would kill the marker lights/DRL's, in order to save energy while driving if employing the original hack/camper mode.
    Parking fee @ supercharger? Never heard of one, even European ones - so i can't say w/ certainty ... other than "all stations full". That's when Tesla charges an 'idle fee' ... you get an app warning. IIRC, the fee is 40¢/minute - 5 minutes or less grace period. Otherwise your camping stall is costing you ~$24hr. Sleep well!

    EDIT
    - remembered another 'range mode' function - if charge nozzle is plugged in, the car will warm the pack if it's below a more optimum operating temp - iirc, ~75°f.
    .
     
    #56 hill, May 17, 2018
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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