New GenIII brake recall affects 87,000 cars

It would help if we could get some metrics on the brake failures:

• service miles
• ratio urban vs highway

This might help us understand what sort of risks we are running. Any thoughts about how we might gather such metrics?

Bob Wilson

 

Almost. She got a RAV4 with all wheel drive.

 

I was at Toyota today for an oil change. As soon as the service guy brought up my file, the top of the page had the recall alert very clearly. He said they won't have parts until later.

 

I was in Japan in 2010 when the accelerator issue hit the news. The sense in the local media was that the issues were serious but were being blown out of proportion in the US to help prop up the domestic car industry that was struggling. It was also noted that the issue seemed to be confined to US-built cars. As the story progressed the recall widened and Toyota's conduct wasn't as transparent as it could have been, which led to doubts about their sincerity.

(When I returned to Australia in 2010 the local car media played down the extent of the recall and highlighted that Australian-built cars were not without flaws. The recently-launched Holden Commodore had a recall because its seatbelt buckles were the wrong shape!)

I just found an article relating to the 2010 accelerator issue in The Japan Times. In 2008 the Toyota Century Royal used to carry Crown Prince Naruhito around Japan had similar issues. Unsurprisingly, Toyota moved heaven and earth to fix the problem.
Imperial Family's car woes sparked Toyota whistleblower | The Japan Times
A translator has turned whistleblower to attempt to expose the difference in approach when it came to the general public with what seemed to be a similar fault. She suggests that because electronic problems are notoriously time-consuming and expensive to fix, Toyota chose to blame other factors.

I think that she makes some interesting points, but whether she has proven negligence is debatable.

 

I can send follow ups with the questions in my informal survey. Sadly, only 5 of 12 people bothered to reply to my PMs.

 

Good read and agrees with my own observations about Toyota. The latest recall is a good example. The PR suggest it's a minor flaw and the brakes are just merely a bit weaker and there were no accidents. This is not what the people who had the problems said: total brake failure and they had to work hard to avoid accidents.

Furthermore, it's interesting how Toyota exactly knows what defective part is the culprit and when exactly it was installed (up to Oct 09). They know that well as their internal QA discovered the flaw and they quickly discontinued the old part and replaced with improved part back in oct 09. They were hoping that there would be not enough deadly problems with the old part to warrant a costly recall.

Sadly, decisions on recalls are usually is in the hands of bean counters: is is cheaper to settle a few lawsuits or recall many 1,000 of cars? People who quickly reported the problems to NHTSA helped to save some lives here.

 

I got 4 responses to the follow up questions.
Mileage at the time of failure/including city miles (estimated)
25000/15000
52000/16000
71000/14000
144000/29000

Thanks to all who participated!

 

We're at 40,000/25,000 miles without a problem but I think we'll hold off on running errands until the fix is available. We won't be able to avoid all trips in the 2010, it is so useful, but no need to 'push the envelope.'

Please extend my thanks to the responders. They have given us a valuable clue about the failure windows.

Bob Wilson

 

Possibly Toyota can judge the date accurately because the supplier changed or the component changed for some other stated reason.

 

When they do a mid production change, that is usually to correct a problem in the part or to make an improvement. After owning Toyota cars for more than a decade, I learned a lot how the system works. Especially buying MY 2003 Corolla in 2002 (first production year of a major generation change) was very educational to me. Long story. 2010 Prius was very tempting but I waited till the end of 2010 to buy one. Optimally, 2011 was the way to go, but I wanted to save some cash.

 

It's weird that Toyota Recalls Prius and Lexus - Yahoo! Finance just showed up, 9 days late. Hm...

 

In general, never buy the first of a new model. A car company may announce a change every year or so, but they've probably made dozens of changes in the interim.
Since 2009 included the model change from 20 to 30, it makes sense that there may have been a change of supplier to ramp up for the new model.
(I'm loathe to say "2009" or "2010" since my car was built in May 2009 and is most definitely a Prius ZVW30.)

 

This is Betsy Benjaminson the Toyota translator/whistleblower... I saw the documents and I say there is something wrong with Toyota's engineering practices that allowed SUA. As a whistleblower, my job cannot possibly be to "prove negligence." That can only be proved in court or by investigators with subpoena power. I can only raise the issue to the government and to some degree in the court of public opinion, hopefully sparking an investigation of the unresolved problem. I am now working to push the government to re-examine the SUA issue and boost their capacity to understand all possible root causes of SUA.

 

Hi Betsy and welcome to PriusChat.
To clarify, when I questioned whether you had, "proven negligence", I was heavily summarising this paragraph in The Japan Times:

I won't speak for everyone here of course, but I'll thank you for what you are doing to bring these matters to attention.

 

Hi Braddles,
Ah, the "smoking gun" debate! It crops up almost every time. In this day and age, executives are tutored by so many lawyers, they would never write down something like "let the customers drop dead from the defects while we get rich!" and they are also pretty careful not to write cause (engineering) and effect (unexpected vehicle behavior) down on one page, or if they do, they usually ascribe it to customer perception. ("brake feel") So I don't have any super smoking gun documents. What I have instead are hundreds of documents that, when the dots are connected, reveal a picture of engineering ...what's the word...maybe "seat of the pants engineering" at times (not all the time) but when the pressure is on to get the new model out the door that must meet extremely stringent requirements for cost and performance. Never was this more true than with the Prius.
Toyota's whole fate is riding on the success of the Prius, and they said so to one another.
So they were pushed to put out new models fast. I have published the documents on the Internet. You can see them. by searching on my name on YouTube and then going to the link that I've posted in a video there. The docs collection is in a Dropbox folder and it includes perhaps 100 docs about the Prius brakes problem for which the recall was done in the US in early 2010. Look for docs whose file names start in F01147 [that's a zero there] and those are all about the Prius brakes.
I hope to share with both detractors and supporters of the Prius engineering here. Personally, I like the Prius very much and I wish I could afford to buy one! Cars are wildly expensive here in Israel, gas costs around $12 a gallon also, so I drive a more modest Fiat.

 

Comments inserted:

* * * quote begins * * *
Ah, the "smoking gun" debate! It crops up almost every time. In this day and age, executives are tutored by so many lawyers, they would never write down something like "let the customers drop dead from the defects while we get rich!" and they are also pretty careful not to write cause (engineering) and effect (unexpected vehicle behavior) down on one page, or if they do, they usually ascribe it to customer perception. ("brake feel") So I don't have any super smoking gun documents.

Pretty damning claim about the ethics and honesty of engineers and engineering managers. Yet these are the same people who bring from nothing products and cars that get over 50 MPG. You can't translate a document into a Prius.

Full disclosure, I am an engineer by training and life-long commitment to engineering practices. The technology we deal with is another world, one that is helped by 'seeing' math and rigorous devotion of physics, chemistry, testing and quality control. But we still have "lessons learned" because we're good but not omniscient.

What I have instead are hundreds of documents that, when the dots are connected, reveal a picture of engineering ...what's the word...maybe "seat of the pants engineering" at times (not all the time) but when the pressure is on to get the new model out the door that must meet extremely stringent requirements for cost and performance. Never was this more true than with the Prius.

Scape-goating the Prius with "Never was this more true than the Prius" ignores:

• half the fatality accident rate of the USA fleet - Prius Fatalities 2001-2007
• twice the MPG of the USA fleet - Fuel Economy and ". . . the on-road vehicle fleets in the United States and Canada have the lowest overall average fuel economy among first world nations: 25 miles per US gallon (9.4 l/100 km) in the United States" (Wiki)

Toyota's whole fate is riding on the success of the Prius, and they said so to one another.

There is an excellent book, "The Prius That Shook The World." The English translations could be better but this book has been around for quite sometime. The reason for the Prius was recognition:

• the world's population is becoming more urban over time - cars are needed compatible with city living
• fossil fuels are being burned faster than they can be replaced - efficiency is critical as well as not poisoning the inhabitants

So they were pushed to put out new models fast.

Who has the luxury of not producing products? Not any engineering projects I've ever worked on. We always are faced with "management" who has to meet our lavish payroll demands and so ask every engineer to 'make product.' This is from a life-time career in engineering.

I have published the documents on the Internet. You can see them. by searching on my name on YouTube and then going to the link that I've posted in a video there. The docs collection is in a Dropbox folder and it includes perhaps 100 docs about the Prius brakes problem for which the recall was done in the US in early 2010. Look for docs whose file names start in F01147 [that's a zero there] and those are all about the Prius brakes.

Uh no. Perhaps someone else has time to chase down find and publish the URL to these "documents" but I don't. I'm an engineer and have to hustle into work on my projects.

I hope to share with both detractors and supporters of the Prius engineering here. Personally, I like the Prius very much . . .

Right, you just want to criticize the engineers and company that made them. We call this a "backhanded complement." Get rid of these evil Prius engineers and the managers and where will the next Prius come from?

. . . and I wish I could afford to buy one! Cars are wildly expensive here in Israel, gas costs around $12 a gallon also,

I hang in the 2001-03 Prius forum and have consulted with Prius owners in Africa, Asia, New Zealand, Somoa, Eastern Europe, and Jordan. Somehow these individuals have managed to get their hands on used Prius that often need work to get rolling again. And my advice remains consistent:

• buy or access the maintenance manuals - you can not understand this car without them
• have a Prius-aware OBD scanner - this is key to getting the information from the half-dozen control computers that operate this car
• a place to work on the car - garage or shelter
• second car - any used car is going to break so a second one allows life to go on
• attitude - if someone made this car, you are smart enough to fix it

. . . so I drive a more modest Fiat.

It is a good thing you don't have access to Fiat engineering documents.

* * * end quote * * *

Is the Prius perfect, no. I know because I have hands-on experience testing, fixing and diagnosing more than a few Prius in the 2001-03 and 2010-current models both others, remotely, and experiments with our own. You may remember we once exchanged e-mail about the tin-whiskers in the 2001-03 Prius accelerator encoders.

We own a 2003 and early-2010 Prius their problems compared to the alternatives . . . well our Prius are not for sale. In fact, we sold our Fiat-equivalent, a 2001 Echo, to buy the 2010 Prius and have never looked back.

Bob Wilson

 

Pretty damning claim about the ethics and honesty of engineers and engineering managers. Yet these are the same people who bring from nothing products and cars that get over 50 MPG. You can't translate a document into a Prius.

I like engineers a lot, and I think Toyota engineers are pretty good engineers, but the documents provide plenty of evidence that with the Prius brakes in particular and to some extent with other vehicles, they are just under a lot of pressure from [bean counter] management to do more with less, just the same as other kinds of employees, shop floor workers, and suppliers. And they have been taught to be careful what they write down. The pressure inside the company is well documented by workers, both in Japan and in the U.S. CF recent Japan Times article on the Dark Sides of Toyota.


Sorry but I am not scape-goating the Prius. I am talking about the Prius brakes that became a particularly thorny engineering problem--- not about the Prius as a whole. I had absolutely no knowledge of the brakes matter before encountering these documents and my opinion has been formed by reading them. Some of the emails among engineers were really pretty shocking. It seemed chaotic. If anyone reads these documents and can explain away that impression, I'm listening.


Uh no. Perhaps someone else has time to chase down find and publish the URL to these "documents" but I don't. I'm an engineer and have to hustle into work on my projects.

So if you prefer to stick to your opinions rather than examine actual evidence, you are entitled. But I know more than you do about this Prius brakes defect and the company related internal situation, so I suggest you level the playing field in your own favor by looking at the docs. If you did, then we would have an intelligent debate on the facts. As it is, you have an opinion and I have facts.

Right, you just want to criticize the engineers and company that made them. We call this a "backhanded complement." Get rid of these evil Prius engineers and the managers and where will the next Prius come from?

Speculating on my motives is really a waste of time, Bob. But, for the record, I do not want to criticize the company or the products other than to serve the purpose of righting things to improve public safety. There is no point otherwise.

. . . and I wish I could afford to buy one! Cars are wildly expensive here in Israel, gas costs around $12 a gallon also,

It is a good thing you don't have access to Fiat engineering documents.

Well, I do know something about Fiat from my work. Anyway, my own car has been extremely reliable for five years. It is definitely not as cool as a Prius, though.

Prius Bob, I respect every engineer. I expect the same respect in return. You seem to have it in for me and I am not sure why. I showed up here in a spirit of helping and solidarity with Prius owners.

Betsy

 

Publish the URLs and I'll be happy enough to take a read. Just I have a hard time with generic instructions about 'finding a Utube document . . . ' Yes, I know new posters are limited in active URL links but usually folks can figure out effective workarounds using SPACE or other characters that break the URL text into something that can be converted back.

Since you already have a Fiat, one part of owning a used Prius, alternate transportation is solved. This provides an option of looking at used Prius . . . if any. Certainly we know others have gotten Prius from various 'gray markets.' One caution:

• NHW10 Prius - sold only in Japan, parts are very difficult to find, the manuals are Japanese (as are the displays) and it is not a recommended vehicle.
• NHW11 Prius - 2001-03 model year (USA) a compact sedan, they have also found their way around the world but in small numbers. In the USA ~54,000 sold and due to accidents and non-repairable failures, now closer to 45,000. Still, we have one but it is best for those who enjoy a technical challenge.
• NHW20 Prius - 2004-09 model year (USA), the hatchback, very practical car sold world-wide. Later models better than earlier.
• ZVW30 Prius - 2010-current model year (USA), now three styles, 1.5L Prius c, 1.8L Prius hatchback, 1.8L Prius Plug-In, and 1.8L Prius v (wagon.) Only the 1.8L Prius hatchback qualifies as a redesign although the Prius c has some unique characteristics. These models do everything the NHW20 does with more space and about 8 km/h faster. The brakes of the ZVW30 now have a second recall in progress for the first 87,000 sold in the USA. The other brake problem was diagnosed and corrected in 2010 if memory serves me well.

The Prius is not for everyone. Some have bought the Prius and complained about handling and seats which led to them moving on. Others, initially skeptics have bought a Prius and become enthusiasts . . . well at least non-skeptics. <grins>

There is a difference between a paper study and hands-on. Sad to say, 'hands on' does not translate well into these funny lines and symbols we post here. It is why I'm trying to suggest it is easier to read something into a memo or corporate e-mail than actually exists in practice. I know, I live in an engineering world (associated with NASA which had two shuttle failures) and fully appreciate the delicate balance between budget, schedule, and what I call electro-political issues.

Bob Wilson

 

Hmm, what a nice SUALeaks. It is a not best example of translator's job the code of ethics. Hopefully someone will sort most useful and interesting documents. Here is a direct link to the dropbox folders Dropbox - Public

 

I would not shoot the piano player, the translator. Rather if I were a lawyer who just won a big settlement against Toyota and the agreement did not include an order to seal the records or perhaps a regulatory agency captured by Prius skeptics, well release of such documents would make sense.

So I'm not setting my hair on fire about this release. Rather I noticed some spreadsheets, the scriblings of engineers. Some may remember the musing of CNW Marketing and we may yet cull something of interest.

So please don't think the translator has done any thing beyond trying to convey Japonese into something like English. I took two semesters of Japanese when I was stationed on Okinawa and there are subtle aspect (and much to admire) in how our good Nipon friends communicate.

Bob Wilson