New VW TDI Commercial disses PRIUS

I read the report on Cleanmpg.com. The '09 TDI definately threw down some good numbers. Much like the Ford Fusion did.

Then again, with drivers like you, Bestmapman and Wayne such things are to be expected.

 

TDI should get about 15% better MPG than Gas-Electric because Diesel contains more energy in the fuel.

If you do the math, that Civic iCDTi is not as efficient as the 06 Prius.

 

If anyone is interested, this is the thread that is going on over at TDIClub about our debate on the commercial:

Prius owners don't like VW TDI commercial - TDIClub Forums

 

So leave them alone. It sounds like there won't be enough Prius for the USA demand ... we'll know for sure by September. So let them enjoy their lives and let's work on what is important to us.

Like chastity, owning a Jetta TDI is its own punishment.

Bob Wilson

 

Aye, I've been watching it for the last week. I'm not going to go over there and mess with them though. Many of them seem pretty cool. Besides, signing up to another forum to start trouble is just lame.

 

Yeah, I just posted that so people could see what they were saying....going over there WOULD be stupid; I really discourage it, the Prius has enough bad press from certain folks in certain states who feel that the Prius is the be-all end-all to saving the planet; it is not. It is a good car, with great fuel economy. If you enjoy your Prius, then you don't need to convince other people of it.

 

Agreed.

 

Thanks, I didn't realize we were that well known

Guys, don't bother going to tdiclub just to kick some dirt in their faces. That's no better than a TDI guy coming here and doing the same.

 

Ohh the modesty...

 

Our 2009 surprised us with space - my parents have did the obligatory Costco runs in it but we would never dream of taking it to Home Depot for a lumber or garden run...

 

Entertaining reading. Seems like most of them were reassuring each other that they had the better vehicle.

also the IQ level is not that high there ,the price of diesel is always lower in the summer.... lets wait and see them talk in the winter time

 

It seems that ecodweeb has been sufficiently stomped already, but I wanted to say a word about biodiesel.

Before that, though, I should mention exactly what fossil fuel is in the purest thermodynamic terms. Basically, what we've been putting into our cars represents the concentrated essence of hundreds of millions of years worth of ancient sunlight, converted to biomass through the process of photosynthesis and then stored in underground deposits waiting for someone to suck it up and burn it. We've been reaping the benefit of being in orbit around a giant gravity-driven fusion reactor floating in space and radiating energy at us for our planet's entire lifespan, and having life consequently develop in ways that could exploit it, then conveniently die, mineralize, and turn into underground lakes of energy rich goop. Energy doesn't come from nowhere. The stuff in our gas tanks originated in hydrogen atoms being crushed into helium in the massive furnace of Sol. I apologize to all of the science geeks for my extremely simplistic description. Obviously the process is a bit more complicated than that, but for the sake of argument, this much information will suffice.

Knowing petroleum's solar origin is important in any conversation about biodiesel because, while I personally think it is great stuff and I salute ecodweeb for using it, we all must understand that the physics at work sets some rather strict limits on how far biodiesel can really carry us. First of all, there is the issue of current sunlight as opposed to ancient sunlight. We didn't personally see the massive investment that went into our fossil fuel, mainly because we weren't even swinging from trees yet when the vast majority of it took place, but it did happen. By contrast, growing crops for biodiesel requires us to use only the sunlight that is falling on us right now in real-time, subject to rainy days and the occasional unproductive growing season from pests, frosts or blights.

Another issue that comes immediately to mind is just how much arable land can be utilized for the production of these crops, keeping in mind that some of us still like to just eat the stuff and that anything that diminishes the amount on the market also can raise the price; an issue that will make itself felt both when buying food and making biofuel.

And this actually segues nicely into the chicken issue. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea that we're learning how to turn waste products into useful things, but as even a casual student of physics knows, when energy is converted from one form to another, overall energy is lost in the conversion process. Now, I don't want to turn this into a vegetarian screed, but growing crops to raise animals is a far less efficient method for consuming sunlight than simply growing crops, and growing crops to make animals to use a small part of the animal for fuel is even worse. And if the price of food is going up through the allocation of land to biodiesel, and more land needs to be devoted to growing crops to feed to animals, and yet more land is going to just stocking your local produce section, and yet more land is lying fallow to regenerate soil nutrients... well, you see where I'm going. When you add that rising gasoline prices will drive up food prices because of the need for machinery to work the land, and that this price increase will be passed on to the crops and to the biofuel made with those crops, we grow less and less able to ignore the implications. We can simplify it even more; if more overall energy is consumed in making biodiesel—sunlight on the fields as well as gasoline to power farm equipment plus refining the stuff into some useful form—than we get out of using biodiesel, we end up with a negative energy delta and that method of energy production becomes nonviable in large scale. We've been able to ignore this so far only because of the small scale of production.

I am not, in general, a person who believes in silver bullets. I think that the energy of the future will be based on diversity of approaches and biodiesel will be one of them, especially when we consider the use of algae and the methods of waste conversion that we're learning with ecodweeb's chicken products. However, I expect that pure electric vehicles running off grids energized by solar and wind (and, yes, nuclear) power will be the primary method of vehicular transport in the future, and hybrids are an important step on that path. Biodiesel is a wonderful thing, in case I haven't made my feelings clear, and one day we will probably depend on it in whatever equipment can't function in a practical way on electric motors alone (construction equipment, for example), but the everyman's fuel of the future it most certainly is not. When the magical energy juice starts to run dry, it won't save us.

hwell:

 

Yes! I wonder if any engineers on PriusChat might speculate as to the feasibility or pitfalls of this...

 

A diesel hybrid is technically feasible. It really would be no different than a gasoline hybrid.

Some problems:
Both diesel engine and electric motors have power characteristics concentrated at low RPM's. This is opposite of gasoline engines that have their power concentrated at higher RPM's. It is a perfect match to mate an electric motor with a gasoline engine because each complements the other's weakness.

Both diesel technology and hybrid technology add cost. If both are added the cost to customer may become too high.

That said, I see a future for diesel hybrids but not in a series / parallel hybrid like the Prius. A diesel engine is ideally suited for a series hybrid like the Volt. In a series hybrid the engine is only required to operate in a limited RPM range to power a generator. This makes the engine much easier to tune for lower emission and may allow a diesel engine to operate without expensive exhaust after treatments.

 

I am not an engineer but want to add more on top of JSH's post.

Most of the current gas-electric hybrids exploit the electric motor torque at low RPM to complement the gas engine and deliver power through the traditional (mechanical CVT, manual or automatic) transmission.

Hybrid Synergy Drive took it to the next level. HSD discarded the traditional transmission and use the powerful electric propulsion as "low gears" equivalent. You have the synergy between the two power sources. For higher torque, HSD use more electricity instead of the need to change gears. So the basis of HSD transmission comes down to electricity generation and management of the HV battery. eCVT was properly named for electrically controlled variable transmission. In a sense, both power sources and transmission become tightly integrated (with a very simple hardware) enabling awesome power delivery and power response. It is a completely different animal and many gear heads have a hard time wrapping their head around it but this should help.

For Diesel hybrid, the synergy between Diesel and electric are different as JSH pointed out. The exploit should be focus on lowering Diesel emission with the extra "hybrid hardware" to justify the extra cost. The payback for start/stop with regen braking may not be enough. There is also weight issue where both Diesel and electric motor add that needs to be addressed.

In summary, there is less synergy between Diesel and Electric making it less "bang for the buck". Until the prices come down and more synergy are found, we will not see Diesel Hybrids.

 

To add one thing to quillsinister's biofuel point, I'd mention artificial nitrogen fertilizers. These are produced mainly from ammonia produced in the Haber-Bosch process. This requires hydrogen, typically synthesised from methane in a steam-reforming reaction.

"The Haber process now produces 100 million tons of nitrogen fertilizer per year, mostly in the form of anhydrous ammonia, ammonium nitrate, and urea. 3–5% of world natural gas production is consumed in the Haber process (~1–2% of the world's annual energy supply). That fertilizer is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population, as well as various deleterious environmental consequences."

-- from [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process]Haber process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame].

We have got to stop eating fossil fuels. I have seen estimates that we invest about 100 times as much energy in food crops as are actually in them, before they even leave the farm gate.

If biofuel requires nitrogen fertilizer, the energy (and energy potential of the inputs) to produce the fertilizer must be factored into ERoEI calculations. I'm not saying we shouldn't recycle waste product - that's a good idea - but we shouldn't be growing crops solely for fuel.

 

Completely agree, and already in production. Just not anything you can drive on the street or park in your garage (Unless the garage is 20x50 and has 12 ft doors)

ProPulse® is an unmatched hybrid electric drive system that provides dramatic benefit for military fleet performance.

For military use, the diesel series-hybrid makes perfect sense. Logistically, you don't have to worry about carting around generators as the ProPulse already offers mil-spec grade power output

As far as the entire VW TDI vs Prius thing, I find it laughible. Both are attempting to reduce our fuel use, and are complimentary.

All this pissing and moaning between the two camps only serves to provide ammunition to the pick-em-up truck crowd

 

I just love it when you talk dirty.

Seriously, a very good point raised about the so-called "biofuel"

 

Normally i just lurk here but i have to ask Dreamer what his/her real user name is? I don't believe any of the modern TDI's will push the 300K mi mark without significant work. My 04 went through over $4K in just repair work over the last 2 years. Comparing the reliability of 85 TD to a Prius is a horriable example. BTW your also compairing the mpg of a manual TDI when you should use a automatic.

 

I want to take back the comment that hybridization add weight. I just checked two purposely build Toyota to compare the weight, one non-hybrid and one hybrid.

2010 Prius: 3,042 lbs
2010 Matrix (1.8 liter): 2,965 lbs
2010 Matrix S (2.4 liter): 3,140 lbs

The base 1.8 liter Matrix is stripped down version so it is lighter. With the bigger engine and more standard equipment, it becomes 3,140 lbs.

Prius also has more sound insulation materials for more quiet driving experience and more standard equipments closer to the luxury car (such as Smart Key, Climate Control, etc..).