New VW TDI Commercial disses PRIUS

We find Prius fun to drive. TDI owners find their car fun to drive as well.

However, we don't go over to TDI forum and disrespect their car while claiming Prius is the most fun car.

That's the difference!

 

A simple ODO screenshot would sum it up. These cars would not pass today's emission nor safety crash tests. Continuing to drive them at risk is purely owner's choice. How much is the insurance?

Unfortunately, EPA groups TDI, SUVs and over sized pickups together. They all are ULEV emission vehicles.

I have no idea how Jetta TDI won the "Green Car" award. This is the first time I heard of that award and we must look into who is behind it.

 

I spent several hours reading & re-reading & studying the 179 page EPA document . It clearly lays out what that 9.5 % actually is based on over about 100 pages . And all but about ~2 % of that has no relationship to the cost of driving within specified conditions how or where most dieselers drive . If your driving situation meets more of the criteria contained within that 9.5 % then lower the amount you add .

It is laid out as a minimum ~3 % discount contained within the 9.5 % average just for ethanol . And the rest of that 9.5 % average is for driving on ice ~2 % , snow ~2 % , heavy rain ~2 % , and on rough roads ~2 % . All worst case in the least efficient model in these conditions .


The TDI-CR is one of the most fuel efficient models in all conditions ever built by anyone as all of our TDIs have been . So that means the reasons contained within the 9.5 % discount of mpgs mean even less than it would on most in real world inefficient models now driving around . That fact is figured in when Raising the amount of that discounting of the window sticker rating that should be given back to light duty diesels , VW TDIs .

So that is where the 7.5 % + the indisputable 18.3 % =total 25.8 % low on the current window sticker rating below actual was given back came from .

The sample numbers in the EPA estimates were ;

Number of units tested in each class -

7,330.... Conventional Gasoline

680....... High MPG Gasoline

520....... Hybrid Gasoline

221....... Diesels , Mostly 99 % VW TDIs with a very few 1 % MBs mixed in . No other car makers submitted a light duty diesel vehicle for test & certification . So the spoke of 18.3 % error is in VW TDI testing by the EPA .


And the 9.5 % downgrading is a national average for ethanol and road conditions that varies from as high as just under ~20 % in parts of the US and as low as 5-6 % in others . So the EPA came up with a generic 9.5 % discounting of all models EPA rating figures . Diesel has no Ethanol in it , never has , nver will . So this makes the rating of our diesels automatically inaccurately loose at least ~3 % of real mpgs before any of the other conditions are figured in .

So if you have all of the above conditions all of the time , not possible since diesels use no ethanol then the adjusted 9.5 % is correct for you . But any of the above that aren't involved in your daily drive can be removed from the discounted mpgs by the EPA .

 

it still will not let me post the link

 

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420r06017.pdf

 

All types & generations of hybrid were lumped together into a single class?

How is that even the slightest bit constructive?
.

 

page 16 http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420r06017.pdf

I spent several hours reading & re-reading & studying the 179 page EPA document . It clearly lays out what that 9.5 % actually is based on over about 100 pages . And all but about ~2 % of that has no relationship to the cost of driving within specified conditions how or where most dieselers drive . If your driving situation meets more of the criteria contained within that 9.5 % then lower the amount you add .

It is laid out as a minimum ~3 % discount contained within the 9.5 % average just for ethanol . And the rest of that 9.5 % average is for driving on ice ~2 % , snow ~2 % , heavy rain ~2 % , and on rough roads ~2 % . All worst case in the least efficient model in these conditions .


The TDI-CR is one of the most fuel efficient models in all conditions ever built by anyone as all of our TDIs have been . So that means the reasons contained within the 9.5 % discount of mpgs mean even less than it would on most in real world inefficient models now driving around . That fact is figured in when Raising the amount of that discounting of the window sticker rating that should be given back to light duty diesels , VW TDIs .

So that is where the 7.5 % + the indisputable 18.3 % =total 25.8 % low on the current window sticker rating below actual was given back came from .

The sample numbers in the EPA estimates were ;

Number of units tested in each class -

7,330.... Conventional Gasoline

680....... High MPG Gasoline

520....... Hybrid Gasoline

221....... Diesels , Mostly 99 % VW TDIs with a very few 1 % MBs mixed in . No other car makers submitted a light duty diesel vehicle for test & certification . So the spoke of 18.3 % error is in VW TDI testing by the EPA .


And the 9.5 % downgrading is a national average for ethanol and road conditions that varies from as high as just under ~20 % in parts of the US and as low as 5-6 % in others . So the EPA came up with a generic 9.5 % discounting of all models EPA rating figures . Diesel has no Ethanol in it , never has , nver will . So this makes the rating of our diesels automatically inaccurately loose at least ~3 % of real mpgs before any of the other conditions are figured in .

So if you have all of the above conditions all of the time , not possible since diesels use no ethanol then the adjusted 9.5 % is correct for you . But any of the above that aren't involved in your daily drive can be removed from the discounted mpgs by the EPA .

 

Emissions are still terrible on the older diesels despite their fuel efficiency.

Every little bit counts when it comes to harmful emissions so doing the best you can despite what others are doing is still important and IMO negligent if you don't.

No one here is advocating to NOT buy a newer TDI and ignoring the true gross polluters. You guys came onto this forum with an agenda to promote your favorite car and in some cases bash the Prius so people here are presenting facts to disprove a lot of the BS behind flung about by a few of the other "intruders". It's not like they are out on a TDI which hunt. I think everyone in this forum would solidly agree with you that SUVs and monster trucks as well as old vehicles are much worse for society than the new TDIs. Hell many of us even recommend the TDI in certain cases because we feel the Prius may not be the best car for them.

 

Dreamer,

Just for the record, would you kindly state what association, affiliation,
or connection you have with VW. Your defensive use of the plural
possessive, "our," suggests something very close indeed.

 

30+ years of driving & repairing 40-50 mpg VW , Audi , Nissan & Toyota-( small pickups & Camry TDs ) passenger diesels autos of all types . And for the record I'm glad that you guys & gals decided to purchase a hybrid instead of a loophole option .

I only wish diesels were not being bad mouthed by so many Prius drivers that have no real clue about the diesel option . The fact that the diesel auto option can help to make our country energy independent years sooner than without them . Over regulating them like has been done today in the US only cuts us off from a real option that exists today to stop sending money to the people that want to destroy us .

If we put the effort that has been put into over regulating light duty diesel emissions into cleaning up loophole vehicle emssions & on getting them off the road sooner than later we will get clean air for the effort . Not a lot of clean air to be had from cars that haven't been sold here for the most part since 1986 ..................

 

Dreamer,

I wish VW market TDI honestly like your statements, instead of trying to act like the king of the green cars.

They need to address reliability and emission control system recyclability. To become green, they need to come clean first.

 

And...

With all due respect, your reply did not directly respond to my request.
Some might consider it evasive...

 

It is likely that my typical drive is as hilly or hillier than yours. Much of the driving where I am is hills and curves...and a whole lotta wind with few level stretches. Since most of the driving here is metro area, opportunities to pulse & glide on the flat over more than a short distance are few (when I've been able to do so in rural areas I've easily gotten high 60's.) You've confused the Plains with the Midwest in general.

Even the interstate drive I described was mostly long rolling hills with the flats being the river flood plains and some plateaus.

I've not had any trouble with it. However, the '10 is supposed to be improved for those that didn't like the earlier driving position.

Who bases their decision on a sunroof? Geez, I've had them in several vehicles and really didn't find them useful. They have had zero impact on my buying decisions.

I'll be thrilled when those from the TDI forums stop visiting us here to impart their special brand of "wisdom." I've not bothered them in their forum so the problem seems to be solely on their end.

 

That's f***** hilarious considering clowns like you come in here to do the reverse. Get a clue!

 

How do user-reported MPGs compare?

I graphed the user reports on Fuel Economy, for Jetta TDI (2009, sedan and SW, MT and AT bundled together) and Prius (2008-9):

The reports averaged 40.0 for TDI, 47.1 for Prius. Averages were unchanged at this rounding level if the outliers (2 on each side for Prius, 3 on each side for TDI) were discarded. The medians were 39.2 for TDI, 47.1 for Prius. Sample size 51 TDIs (doubled for graph scaling purposes) and 116 Prii.

For another reference point, what did America's best known hypermiler, Wayne Gerdes, report in his reviews of these cars?

2009 Jetta TDI SW, 66.556 mpg over 1920.6 miles (2 tanks)
2006 Prius, 76.466 mpg over 1605.1 miles
2002 Prius, 75.416 mpg over 1590.3 miles
2008 Civic Hybrid, 73.15 mpg over 503.2 miles
2007 Civic iCDTi, 85.52 mpg over 1764.96 miles (diesel, not available in U.S.)

Note that I grabbed these figures from his fuel logs, without combing the actual reviews to see what difficulties he may have noted that would have skewed the numbers.

 

Then you really have another problem:

So let's take the EPA numbers and boost them by the 25%:

• 33 MPG ~= 75% of the true value, assumes 25% low
• 11 MPG = 25% of the true value
• 44 MPG = 100% of the true value, users reporting 40.9 MPG
• 40.9 MPG (Jetta users) < 44 MPG (adjusted Jetta EPA)
• 44 MPG (adjusted Jetta EPA) < 46 MPG (EPA Prius)
• 46 MPG (EPA Prius) < 49 MPG (Prius users)
• 40.9 MPG (Jetta users) << 49 MPG (Prius users)

You'll also notice the Prius and Jetta TDI owners have been reporting their mileage. We can look at these individual records:



We don't have to look very far to find owner reports that state the Jetta mileage is pretty lame compared to the Prius. So would you like to put a friendly wager on your Jetta versus a 2010 Prius?

We can't put up pink slips, after all, the winner would just have a piece of junk. Perhaps a year's worth of gas or diesel:

• $1,000 - by the 2010 Prius owner
• $800 - by the Jetta TDI owner

That strikes me as a fair wager ... you have the $800, right?

Bob Wilson

 

VWs aren't known for reliability - maybe the old school Bug yes. Pretty much all the WasserWagens are afflicted by mechanical and electrical gremlins. Don't get me wrong, VWs are a BLAST to drive but what good does fun to drive mean if your car spends more time at the dealer or mechanic than on the road?

If there was a small passenger car diesel that has all the features and ruggedness as a heavy-duty diesel like a Cummins along with a small compact form factor, I would consider one. Ironically, the only "consumer" market diesel worth a damn is the Cummins ISB in the Dodge Ram HD, but unfortunately it's a superior engine wrapped around mediocre sheet metal and drivetrain. Ford's having issues left and right with the 6.0/6.4L Power Strokes, while the GM Duramax isn't regarded seriously.

As for those EPA figures, I say save your money and just buy a Civic or a Corolla instead.

 

We sold our "compact" 2001 Echo to buy a "family sedan" sized, 2010 Prius, and have never looked back. Compact cars have their uses but they don't even come close to the 2010 Prius in the ability to comfortably carry people and stuff. Not even close.

Bob Wilson

 

I only drive one car at a time, how many do you drive at once?
I don't understand what you are saying? Because there are few diesels that makes it OK to add another one even if they are dirty but adding another petrol car is bad. Did I get that right?

I did, I don't own one. What more can I do?

 

I was in the Jetta for most of those 1920 miles. It was loaded up with 2-4 people and gear. Wayne said that the Prius II could not get the numbers the JSW gave us if conditions were the same. He also mentioned that said that for >50% highway driving, he'd strongly consider the 2009 TDI over the Prius II. But compared to the Prius III, he'd most likely take the Prius. The HCH-II will still kill the TDI out on the highway. The North American TDI has too much emissions control going on and that keeps it from threatening Euro diesels like the i-CTDi.