Featured Next-generation solid-state batteries in production in China ?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by kenmce, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    Report from Xinhua, the Chinese news agency, that Chinese start-up Qing Tao (Kunshan) Energy Development Co. Ltd, has come out with a solid state lithium-ion battery with an energy density of over 400 Wh/kg. That's about twice what a normal "wet" Liion holds and should not be able to leak or catch fire. Let's hope it's true:

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._137619309.htm
     
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  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sunday driver DIY’r

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    "first solid-state battery production line has become operational" sounds very definite.
     
  3. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Wonder how exclusive the recipe is? With Tesla investing heavily in building factories in China, combined with their factories ability to change the battery recipe, maybe this is a win for both Kunshan & Tesla? Guess the Chinese government makes that decision...
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    don't trust any 'news' out of there, we'll see.
     
  5. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    It does, but I notice that they don't say anything about cost, reliability, or life expectancy. Maybe it costs $50.00 for a unit the size of a coin cell, maybe it has a fifty cycle life expectancy, maybe it's vibration sensitive, maybe it takes two days to charge up without bursting, we don't know yet. The entire article could just be a quiet way to fish for investors. I will note these:

    This guy is the founder: https://pubs.acs.org/author/Nan%2C+Cewen

    And this is a paper about the new product: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsami.8b15121

    So I expect there is some kind of meat behind the sizzle.
     
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I would like to see a data sheet for a 21700 or 18650 cell.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Now if we can overcharge, overdischarge overheat and charge while frozen without degrading the battery we will have a winner

    The whole problem with lithium is that it lacks the durability and fool proof nature of FLA.

    As for energy density and cost we are already good enough the above would eliminate most of the cost of using lithium,

    not holding my breath though,
    Another article on this subject used photos of a German plant making normal lithium batteries stating production is started
     
  8. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    It's a great way for them to get attention whether the claims are valid or not...
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    shouldn't we throw a 500 mile range on the "all those downsides of batteries" list? But why set the sights so low, worrying about the 1% - 3%?'ers. Why not have such a wish list for gasoline. Now, if we can have gasoline that isn't toxic to humans prior to and during its burning? .... if we have gas that doesn't explode violently ..... where worldwide, untold people burn to death every year ..... now, if we manufacture gasoline in our own garage like we can do on our roof with solar, for our transportation fuel .... if we can have gasoline that doesn't support Middle East terrorism .... if we can have gas production that doesn't destroy our echo system through ocean tanker spills / refinery spills / offshore platform spills and explosions ...... if we could have gasoline be renewable .... if we could have gas that has 3X the efficiency like PV electric transportation ..... if we can have gasoline that doesn't cause thousands yearly to die of pulmonary conditions ..... yea - we will have a winner.
    In the Middle East they have an expression for focusing on the minor details. They say, one is straining out the gnats while they swallow the camels. But hey, if folks don't want to worry about the 97% .... that's okay.

    .
     
    #9 hill, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  10. PriusV17

    PriusV17 Active Member

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    In my opinion. The best EV battery already exists right now and planned for production in 2019.

    It is developed by Toshiba called the SCiB. It will charge an EV to 200 miles in just 6 minutes and have a cycle life of 10,000+ deep charge and discharge cycles with little degradation and little risk of fire from rapid charging or heat. This already surpasses all existing EV batteries in production and performance out there. Toyota should work with Toshiba because this is already in production or ready for 2019.

    It is not solid state, it is still liquid state. But it's performance and life is what you would expect from a solid state.

    Toshiba : News Release (3 Oct, 2017): Toshiba Develops Next-Generation Lithium-ion Battery with New Anode Material
     
  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    With the demand for batteries these days, the issue isn't being the best battery, rather being the battery that can be produced at scales we can barely comprehend yet. Whoever makes the most of 'em, even if they aren't the best is gonna win... Battery shortage is real right now.
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's just a toshiba promo paper. there won't e a battery coming in 2019. unfortunately
     
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    2019 you say .... (that they say). What is that, some 30-odd days 'till 2019? Great! Can you send me a link to their gigafactory sized production facility so that it can meet demand? I'm sure they would have that, otherwise, it might just be another over-promised / under-deliver scenario.
    6 minutes to get 200 miles .... & where are those Chargers? .... you know, the 10's of 1,000's of chargers necessary to run non-vaporware infrastructure? Along with the massive Transformers necessary to run those nozzles? To date, the only company to answer the call to "put up or shut up" was .... you know who. Just sayin' .... here's to hoping it's true, but history does have its anecdotal evidence.

    .
     
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  14. PriusV17

    PriusV17 Active Member

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    Toshiba SCiB first generation (which is just half the capacity) has been out for over 6 years and real world tested on the Honda Fit EV. Their factory already exists. It's a chemistry upgrade to the new generation. So I am more optimistic than doubtful.

    The problem from what I understand, these batteries are too expensive. Honda had no plans to keep it in production.

    12Fit_EV_02.jpg

    ToshibaScibGen1.jpg
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    cost is a common obstacle to breakthrough advancement
     
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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    2170 Tesla Toshiba SCiB
    1 Length 70 63 mm W
    2 Diameter 21 14 mm D
    3 97 mm H
    4 Volume 4618 85554 mm3
    5 Weight 66 150 g
    6
    7 Voltage 3.7 2.4 V
    8 Charge 5.75 2.9 Ah
    9 Capacity Wh 21.275 6.96 Wh

    • 18x the volume
    • 2x the weight
    • 28% the charge
    I'll pass.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #16 bwilson4web, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Once again, hope crashes headlong into reality. Even so - each new generation cell gets just a bit better. Operative words, 'a-bit' ..... yet we still hold out for miracle products.
    .
     
    #17 hill, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Attachments removed.

    Yes that is exactly the problem with claiming these technologies will take over fast. Tesla/panasonic say sooner, but should be able to get a battery of 20% higher density (kwh/liter) than the model 3s down to $100/kwh. Solid state isn't close to that low cost yet, which is why both panasonic and toyota have both recently said it will be a decade before they are in volume car production. Who knows maybe the chinese can do it in 5. The 80.5 kwh battery pack in the model 3 has been reported to be 1054 lbs or 478 KGs. Solid state will be lighter, but in a 3800 lb car, making it weigh only 1/3 as much would still make it a 3100 lb car. energy density now in terms of wh/kg = 168 at the pack level but between 240 and 310 depending on what guestimates you use at the cell level. Solid state batteries will be closer to the cell density.

    As Bob points out the SCiB can charge much faster, but weighs much more, and costs more/kwh. The model 3 can charge at about 44 mph in a garage and 170 miles in a half hour at a super charger. Mine is slower at 29 miles/hour at home as I just have the 240 VAC outlet and didn't pay for the fancy hardwired charger. I doubt people are going to pay much more for quicker charging, but who knows. The battery in the mercedes project one (now delayed until 2020) can charge much faster than that as its F1 expensive technology, but its in a $2M car and it only holds 4 kwh.

    Solid state will come, but my thoughts are its at least 7 years away from being in a volume production car. I expect to see it in consumer electronics gear first.
     
    #18 austingreen, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  19. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Half the cost of a lithium battery is in packaging, thermal management and the charger/BMS

    The original solid state batteries claim to fame was indifference to temperature and a capacitor like resistance to overcharging

    If that holds true they can cost twice as much and still be better and safer than current tech
     
  20. PriusV17

    PriusV17 Active Member

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    Gen 2 cell specs aren't officially released as far as I know.
     
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