Nissan Leaf - checking it out tonight

Discussion in 'Nissan/Infiniti Hybrids and EVs' started by drees, Nov 20, 2009.

  1. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    who knows? not i. Zenn has a web conference tomorrow announcing plans for the company after the shuttering of their production line. maybe some info will come out from that
     
  2. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Keep us posted please, Dave.
     
  3. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    once again, no real info other than Zenn has enough money (after closing factory and laying off their production staff) to last to the end of the year without EESU.

    there is NO technical hurdle to EESU launch (what hurdle IS there was not discussed)

    100% of product delivery...iow, nothing really new at all that we did not already know
     
  4. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    If there is no technical hurdle, then why are they not delivering product? I suspect that there is a very big hurdle: namely that they still don't have an EESU anything like what's being promised. The fact that the technology apparently does not yet exist is a pretty big technological hurdle, if you ask me.

    (Unless maybe they have a whole warehouse full of EESUs, and they've decided to wait a year while Zenn stock falls to two cents a share, so they can buy it all back for nothing and make a killing when they release the EESUs. -- I consider the likelihood of this somewhat less than the chances that Zooey Deschanel and Octavia will have a no-holds-bared bare-knuckle last-girl-standing fight over who gets to own me as a sex toy.)
     
  5. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well a world changing product could have a lot of issues with intellectual rights protection.

    another thing that was mentioned at the Zenn meeting is that Lockheed-Martin is also heavily involved possibly alluding to national security issues at stake as well.

    but who really knows? lots of speculation, lots of info passed around, but no concrete facts as of yet...

    as far as that fight you were referring too...i want front row tickets, how much?
     
  6. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    Hmmm. I'm trying to parse this one. All the planned EVs I know about have range numbers that are no more or less reliable than the EPA numbers for gasoline cars. YMMV, certainly. But as long as everybody is held to the same standards, I'm not sure what else you can do. And so far, I haven't seen the availability "float" on the product that I truly consider "planned"... yet. Today's promises finally seem to be different from yesterday's.

    It is.

    It turns out that this is an illegal practice... to sell a car that requires a leased part to make it work.

    I certainly believe it. But it also depends on the definition of "rollout."

    What I've been saying for about two years now.

    Daniel offers up some pretty fancy math for this. After living with several EVs, I can sum this up for anything that will have a modern, high-efficiency HVAC system: At freeways speeds, you can make up for the power being consumed by the HVAC by driving one or two mph slower. Folks forget how much energy the motive force consumes... and how the HVAC draw pales in comparison to overcoming air resistance. One or two mph slower should put it into perspective.
     
  7. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    That SOOOOOO sounds like a scam. Classic pig in a poke. "I can't show you the pig because of national security." If this is really considered a national security issue, then Zenn would not be allowed to sell them to the public, where a spy could buy one at any Zenn dealer and ship it to "the bad guys."

    If the EESU is deemed a national security issue, we will never see it in a consumer vehicle until some other country develops one independently and makes it globally available so that it is no longer a secret.

    My point was, it ain't gonna happen!

    I want a Leaf. Therefore I am not concerned about whether the deposit is refundable because I won't be asking for a refund. Unless they default on the delivery date, in which case I'd have a legal claim to my deposit back.

    And before anybody makes a comparison with the early days of the 2004 Prius, in that case they were making no promises about delivery dates. So you could ask for your deposit back when you got tired of waiting or found a different dealer willing to sell you one.

    Nissan is promising to deliver around 900 to 1,000 cars in each of several markets in December. I'm calling that the initial limited rollout.

    During the short time I was driving the electric Porsche, there was one day so hot I turned on the A/C. There was a significant loss of power to the wheels. The fastest I could go dropped by about 5 mph at freeway speed. Clearly, the A/C was taking a measurable amount of energy.

    Obviously, faster speed draws more energy per mile, so you can go farther by driving slower. So it is useful to specify range on flat ground at some specified speed, such as 65 mph, which is a safe freeway speed where I live. Use of A/C or heat will reduce that.

    If I want to go farther, I drive slower. But at some point you reach the most efficient speed, and at that point use of heat or A/C will reduce your maximum range.

    It's just a matter of deciding what range you want at a given speed, and taking into account the energy consumed by heat or A/C if you will be using those.

    80 miles is all the range I need. So a car that will go 100 miles without A/C at freeway speed will give me what I need. Though here in Spokane, A/C can be dispensed with, and in fact the re-build of my Porsche will have the A/C removed.
     
  8. thefortunes

    thefortunes New Member

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    Leaf pricing announced - MSRP $32,780 (before tax credits)
     
  9. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    ahh beat me too it!!. after tax credt of $7500 that is $26,000... that just moved it to the top of my list
     
  10. ualdriver

    ualdriver Member

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    Are you guys getting e-mails or something with stuff like this? I signed up on what I thought was that special Leaf website, but I haven't received one e-mail from them.
     
  11. ljbad4life

    ljbad4life New Member

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    That's a good price. even at 32k there are prius Vs. Good luck Nissan!
     
  12. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    lease price $1999 down, 349 a month for 36 months. not bad! eliminates battery worries
     
  13. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    (also posted in other Leaf/Volt thread)

    Nissan Leaf Electric Vehicle Is Surprisingly Affordable | Autopia | Wired.com

    The Nissan Leaf electric car will cost $32,780 when it rolls into showrooms in December. Add in the federal EV tax credit and the bottom line is $25,280, a price that makes the Leaf competitive with the Honda Civic and the Toyota Prius.

    Lifecycle ownership costs of the Leaf over five years is $28,180 versus a Civic at $28,338 and the Prius at $29,358,†said Trisha Jung, chief marketing manager for the Leaf. “That’s the cost of the vehicle, the cost of the charging station and the cost of the electricity.

    A word on the math: Nissan figured electricity costs at 11.64 cents per kilowatt-hour and gasoline at $2.94 a gallon and assumes you drive 12,000 miles a year. The purchase price come down further if you include the tax credits or rebates several states offer. California and Georgia, for example, offer a $5,000 tax credit.
     
  14. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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  15. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    my electric rates are lower than 11 c/kwh. and soon my gas will be more than (much more) $2.94 a gallon. (its 2.89 now and rising and will continue to do so all the way up to memorial day weekend...guessing around $3.50!!)

    so, definitely not a bad ROI and could potentially be much better. i also have the benefit of free plug in options around town and at work lowering my cost even more
     
  16. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    I'm amazed at the surprisingly good price too and the lack of forced leasing of the battery, esp. since Ghosn pushed it and gave his justifications as to why. I didn't know about it illegal.

    The Nissan PR stuff and Leaf web site don't really mention the battery lease having gone away nor do they mention why, but it seems the Wired article confirms they're not leasing it. Hopefully they will put something up about both of these.

    Too bad I'm not in the market for another car and live in apartment thus don't really have a means of charging. :( My commute is REALLY short right now (<10 miles total/day) and would be fine w/the Leaf. My company has some 110 V outlets in their garage but I heard facilities/security (currently) has a policy of unplugging any vehicles they find plugged in.

    If the warranty, battery longevity and reliability are good along w/a relatively low battery replacement cost, then Nissan has a good shot of having a winner.

    edit: The Leaf Facebook page says:
     
  17. ljbad4life

    ljbad4life New Member

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    You cannot sell a new car unless it can move. You wouldn't be able to specifically be able to call it a car. like for instance in NY state You can call it a body, shell, parts, but you can't call it a car (that's used). you can not sell a new car that does not operate.

    *edit* I really think that it was a bad idea for Nissan to even have considered leasing the batteries, let alone mention it to the media. All I've seen in comments in various articles is "does this include the battery". So not only does nissan have to overcome the range anxiety, and limited infrastructure, they now have to overcome, the car doesn't come with batteries (it won't work). It's going to turn into the neigh-sayers urban legend!
     
  18. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    ljbad4life, I doubt that, as they are seen being driven all over the western US within 8 to 12 months, 4700 of them in fact, if you check with http://www.theevproject.com/index.php
     
  19. ljbad4life

    ljbad4life New Member

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    Well I am glad that they are deploying in a few states, but only 4,700 to support all those stations. The places that would benefit most from the infrastructure are left out, real major metro areas not Chatoonoga TN. wake me up when those stations are surrounded by more than 3 people.
     
  20. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    The initial 4700 deployment is mainly a "real world" test for Nissan, the Leaf, and the infrastructure to see how they perform, what issues come up, and to figure out how the power will be invoiced to users, it is really a "beta" test of the concept... with $100 million in government bailout money. At least it's going to promote a worthwhile cause and not lining some wall street bankers pockets.

    checkout their "fake" web portal: http://www.theevproject.com/portal/
     
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