Nissan Leaf vs Prius

Discussion in 'Nissan/Infiniti Hybrids and EVs' started by DanCar, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    Nissan is stating the battery pack will have a 5 year warranty.

    They expect they will last between 5 and 10 years.

    It remains to be seen (since none have been tested), but they expect a %20 loss in capacity near the 5 year mark. that is hardly %50 DanCar. A123's chemistry has been cycle tested to 5400 cycles (the equivilant of 15 years of full cycles), to a %95 discharge, and they only showed a %20 loss at the 5400 cycle point. Nissan is using an even newer chemistry, so only actual time and experience will be a true test. This is a good reason to go for the 36 month lease.
     
  2. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Very nice. Where can I find this info online?
     
  3. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    try the newly redesigned Nissan Leaf website...

    Nissan LEAF Electric Car

    also search by threads I have responded to, the PDF has been reposted by me in a few threads.. it was a study done mostly about the A123 cells and lifecycle testing done to them.
     
  4. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    I didn't see that info on their website. Is the PDF available somewhere on the web?
     
  5. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    I beg to differe - NOBODY expected these batteries to last as long as they are proving to last. Certainly not Toyota, not the drivers, not the battery makers. Shelf live is one thing. Abusing the snot out of them (using the full capacity) and only having very low tech and uneven air cooling in an automotive environment is another thing altogether. Anyway... The batteries have demonstrated durability beyond anybody's wildest dreams.

    Did your scooters use Li batteries? Smart battery management? Really this all comes down to the type of chemistry and how the batteries are treated. I have trouble imagining that the Leaf and scooters will have the same level of battery management.... and I don't see many Li-powered scooters out there, though I'm sure there are some now.

    After eight years of driving our Rav4EV every day (on NiMH chemistry) there is no power drop, and very little range drop. I'm guessing the scooters are lead-acid?
     
  6. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    for scooters most are lead-acid, some are lithium.
     
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Curious, I clicked on the "reserve" button and got this page:
    reserve online.

    the video therein suggests the 4 steps to getting a leaf:
    1)Reserve - OK, simple enough
    2)Home Assessment - you schedule an electrician to come assess your home for the charger install.... Hmmm, OK, I guess that's smart to make sure you're not sitting around waiting for a car you won't be able to charge.
    3)Charger Installation--Not that seemed a little odd, but I guess it's good to have the charger all set when the car gets there even though you could, in theory, get it done after and just use 110V to charge until then.
    4)Order--WHAT? I install a charger before I order, then I wait for the car to come?? What's the reserve do then? What if circumstances change b/w charger install and car arrival...then I'm out $2k for a charger install.

    Maybe it'll be more clear once I get my email, but why do they have to make things confusing....
     
  8. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    Keep your wallet open:

    :D ;) In Race to Market, Nissan’s Electric Car Takes Shortcuts | Autopia | Wired.com


    Sheer force of will from a charismatic leader can accomplish great things when matched with a company that has a good reputation for execution. Cars, however, are complicated pieces of engineering, and an electric vehicle presents numerous fresh challenges to Nissan engineers. Intense pressure from the top may have created a sense of urgency, but it also appears to have driven the company to take some shortcuts.


    First, Nissan overpromised on the realistic range by consistently quoting a number tied to the most optimistic benchmark, the LA4 cycle. Drivers who stick to stop-and-go traffic on city streets in temperate climates may indeed consistently see 100 miles of range, but most drivers will see significantly less in a mix of city and highway driving. Driving in California, the country’s top market for electric vehicles, involves a lot of time on highways where the 65 mph speed limit is rarely observed. The LA4 cycle Nissan quotes mostly stay below 30 mph with one two-minute “sprint” at 55 mph every 22-minute cycle.

    It also appears Nissan has cut corners on the most critical aspect of electric vehicle technology — the battery pack. The key engineering trade-off Nissan has made is opting not to include active thermal management, where the temperature of the pack is controlled by an HVAC system similar to what cools the passenger cabin on a hot day. Instead, Nissan has opted to use only an internal fan that circulates the air within the sealed pack to evenly distribute the heat, which escapes by passive radiation through the pack’s external case.
    [​IMG] The Nissan Leaf has a passively cooled 24-kilowatt-hour battery pack located under the floorboard. Photo: Nissan.

    Thermal management in lithium-ion battery packs is critical to the long-term performance and quality of the battery. The manganese oxide pack is sensitive to high temperature and the primary consequence is that the pack will degrade more rapidly than one with active thermal management. This problem will be worse in hotter climates such as Phoenix, which Nissan has selected as one of its launch cities.


    Thermal management [with lithium manganese batteries] has bookend issues to manage: minimized power at low temperatures and life reduction at high exposure to higher temperatures,” he said. “If you want to replace your battery every four to five years and someone is willing to pay for [a replacement battery], either the customer or the manufacturer, a modest or minimal HVAC system may work.”


    Nissan’s confidence on this matter aside, early purchasers of the Leaf should consider taking the company up on its offer to lease the battery, which would leave any financial risk of early battery degradation where it belongs — with Nissan.

    Ghosn said leasing batteries — which Nissan will produce through a joint venture with NEC — provides several benefits. First and foremost, it keeps the cost of the car reasonable. Although automakers don’t discuss what their batteries cost, they are widely believed to run $500 to $1,000 per kilowatt-hour. The Leaf sports a 24 kilowatt-hour lithium manganese battery.


    Ghosn didn’t say what the lease might cost but said Nissan is confident the cost of the lease, plus the money you’ll pay for electricity, will for most consumers be no more expensive than buying gasoline.

    Now there's some real assurances for you (from Nissan, no less) - "...will, for most consumers be no more expensive than buying gasoline". My question is - why bother??

     
  9. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    If you limit the cycles to 25-75% depth of discharge (talking your typical Lithium-Ion battery here), you will get a LOT more than double the cycles. Otherwise, there would be no point to limiting the depth of discharge.

    With many Lithium batteries, you can increase cycle life by 2-5x by simply avoiding charging the pack to 100% and instead targeting 90% or so.
     
  10. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    bigdog123, thanks for your usual optomistic post. most are planning to lease the Leaf (the entire car) for the initial 36 month term, we can then decide if we want to get something new in 36 months, or buy it out, if there are no issues...
     
  11. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    Glad you speak for "most" people? Can you also read minds and pick winning lotto numbers? LOL.

    That siad, I'm always happy to share the info with all you supposed engineering/technology experts. Right? :rolleyes:

    Lease? Now there's a real good plan for saving money. Not. Might be a good insurance plan in case the Leaf turns out to be a bust, but leasing is no way to make this whole experiment cost effective (unless you can write this off as a business vehicle).

    But finances aside, and as per the wired.com article, I would choose to focus on the following engineering factors (and this doesn't even factor in the capacity drop with useage, and battery drain due to having to heat the cabin in the Winter, as well as run all the other electrical gadets on the car, etc):

    First, Nissan overpromised on the realistic range by consistently quoting a number tied to the most optimistic benchmark, the LA4 cycle. Drivers who stick to stop-and-go traffic on city streets in temperate climates may indeed consistently see 100 miles of range, but most drivers will see significantly less in a mix of city and highway driving. Driving in California, the country’s top market for electric vehicles, involves a lot of time on highways where the 65 mph speed limit is rarely observed. The LA4 cycle Nissan quotes mostly stay below 30 mph with one two-minute “sprint” at 55 mph every 22-minute cycle.

    It also appears Nissan has cut corners on the most critical aspect of electric vehicle technology — the battery pack. The key engineering trade-off Nissan has made is opting not to include active thermal management, where the temperature of the pack is controlled by an HVAC system similar to what cools the passenger cabin on a hot day. Instead, Nissan has opted to use only an internal fan that circulates the air within the sealed pack to evenly distribute the heat, which escapes by passive radiation through the pack’s external case.
     
  12. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Nissan has addressed the above article by stating they have been working on battery technology since 1992. They also state they have tested the batteries at high temperatures and know they do not additional thermal management.
     
  13. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    Here's a question that a co-worker asked me...

    If Toyota and Honda, the two largest auto companies in Japan, and the two Japanese companies that have actively been making hybrids for a very long time....if they aren't going "all electric"...how come? What do their engineers and marketing folks know, that Nissan doesn't?

    Certainly, if Toyota wanted to crank out an all electric vehicle, they were far better positioned (engineering wise, distribution wise and financially) to do it, than is Nissan. So why not? Not saying they won't (eventually), but for now, they're standing on the sidelines checking things out. Why?

    OK, all you green Leaf eaters...spin away. :rockon:
     
  14. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    the article has no more basis than any of the articles claiming USA. its an opinion from a 3rd party observer that has no more info than anyone of us on the technology used.

    granted, as we all know, stop and go at city speeds might be better, regen adding to range and all that, but who cares??? in my post, i said i would settle for a Leaf that only gets 70 miles under adverse conditions. so i am set

    also, valid concerns (or anything vaguely resembling such) would be flying all over the web right now and i dont see that.

    what was the stats when the Nissan toured the country. there were several that were actually driven, not trucked and as i recall, all got near the 100 mile range.
     
  15. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    I'm sure they have. LOL. That's it? They're right, and everybody else is wrong. Did bernie madoff work for them a few years back? :cool:
    Trust me. :eek:
     
  16. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    You are flat out wrong.

    Sorry, but the conditions under which Nissan has touted the 100 mile range (ie the LA4 cycle) have not been widely (certainly, NOT by Nissan) publicized. This article is FACTUAL in it's citing of the conditions uner which the Nissan range was measured....and for many, those conditions are simply NOT realistic, and do not represent day to day operating conditions. But Nissan doen't mention that.

    Which gets me to my point - People are gonna believe what they want to believe, and disregard the rest (Simmon & Garfunkel). Nissan is playing to that in their marketing. They have been far from truthful and forthcoming....

    Again -

    First, Nissan overpromised on the realistic range by consistently quoting a number tied to the most optimistic benchmark, the LA4 cycle. Drivers who stick to stop-and-go traffic on city streets in temperate climates may indeed consistently see 100 miles of range, but most drivers will see significantly less in a mix of city and highway driving. Driving in California, the country’s top market for electric vehicles, involves a lot of time on highways where the 65 mph speed limit is rarely observed. The LA4 cycle Nissan quotes mostly stay below 30 mph with one two-minute “sprint” at 55 mph every 22-minute cycle.

    It also appears Nissan has cut corners on the most critical aspect of electric vehicle technology — the battery pack. The key engineering trade-off Nissan has made is opting not to include active thermal management, where the temperature of the pack is controlled by an HVAC system similar to what cools the passenger cabin on a hot day. Instead, Nissan has opted to use only an internal fan that circulates the air within the sealed pack to evenly distribute the heat, which escapes by passive radiation through the pack’s external case.
     
  17. thefortunes

    thefortunes New Member

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    I've been reading this (and other LEAF) threads and thinking to myself...

    Some people want the LEAF because it will reduce emissions and/or our dependence on oil, some want it because it is the "newest toy," and some want it because they feel it will be cost effective in the long run. I'm sure there are many other reasons.

    Others don't feel the same way, and are trying to argue against the LEAF's validity in any of the above points.

    Although EV's certainly won't be for everyone, let me share our experience with the ZENN...

    We bought it at the end of last year for $8,000 (and got a $3,500 tax credit to boot, so a net cost of $4,500). For the 2600 miles we have put on it to date, we are averaging 5.2 miles/kWh (which at our electricity and gas costs here works out to the equivalent of 148 mpg). By my calculation, we have "saved" about $250 in gas vs. electricity. We are averaging 23 miles per day (including more than 50 miles multiple times - with "opportunity charging") on a battery pack that is rated for 40 miles, and have used it 80 out of the last 85 days (after I started tracking it).

    We are a 3 driver family, so it works great for us, but we MAY replace it with a LEAF to get the additional range, highway speed, etc...


    Bottom line, we won't know how the LEAF performs until it gets delivered.
     
  18. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    Toyota has actually answered that question several times. they dont feel that they can provide a viable EV simply because they dont feel that a 100 mile range is enough. its not that there is not the available technology because the technology is there. i dont remember the exact quote, but they performed market studies that showed that a 100 mile EV would only work if offered at the $15-18,000 range which they were not willing to do.

    also, they were not willing to provide a car to a very limited CA market where the current charging network is. with the EV highway project, Nissan is willing to take a chance. without the project, Nissan would not be here either
     
  19. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Your credibility is equal to one that appears to be a paid troll. You've made numerous incorrect statements. Your arguments against credible sources is to laugh at them. Trust you would be similar to trusting a liar. Nissan has engineers with data studying the problem, the article has worries with no hard data.
     
  20. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    Leasing could end up costing not much more than buying the car outright. #1, you are guranteed to get the $7500 tax credit, because Nissan is getting it and passing it on, also, at $1999 down, and $349/month for 35 additional months, that is your entire cash outlay for 36 months, besides sales tax and insurance. add sup to $14,214. Of course it now depends on what the "residual" is set to at the end of the 36 months, to determine the total cost of leasing it versus buying it, and how many miles will be allowed during the 36 months as well.

    Even if you want to own it, leasing could be advantages because you are only exposed to a fixed financial risk, and there might very well be more choices in 3 years to get something better.

    The total cost is $394.43 per month for 36 months, to try out the Leaf. I think that is very reasonable for the first commercialy availble EV on the market.
     
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