Featured Not alone in feeling that Toyota is missing the EV-boat (article)

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by R-P, Sep 14, 2021.

  1. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Welcome to Priuschat

    what's the official price paid on the Y?
     
  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Capture%2B_2021-05-19-11-18-05.jpg
    Already done.
    ;)
    .
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Experience with both SuperCharger and CCS-1, I’ll take SuperCharging first choice. As recently as August, the CCS-1, Electrify America station at Athens Walmart failed my woman and her 2014 BMW i3-REx. So she drove home on gas.

    SuperCharger advantages:
    • Integrated with Tesla EVs.
    • Upgrading from 120 kW to 250 kW
    • No billing issues
    • Minimum 6 charging lanes and seen up to 10
    • Lower cost per mile driven (gas was 4x cheaper per mile with same 2014 BMW i3-REx)
    Bob Wilson
     
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Those two can't happen at the same time. The ones I've looked at, including one that just opened, have about 50kVA worth of transformer for each lane.

    On the other hand, the two CCS charging stations I've looked at both had 175kVA per lane.
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Harris Ranch, halfway up the California Central Valley on i5, has over fifty - 250amp stalls ... all of 'em V3 .... and maybe as many as 56. But then as you say, you haven't looked at them.
    All those stations, and with the adapter for CCS? The hand full of those too.
    .
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Which one(s) as I can check from the Tesla side. Also PlugShare.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Las Vegas, NM (300kVA transformer, 6 slots) and 1st and Quebec, Denver (1000kVA transformer, 14 slots + 4 6.6kW L2 stations).

    The Hays, KS CCS station had 4 slots and a 750kVA transformer.
     
  8. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I'll bet you there's no where near enough transformer power to run all the stalls at 250kW.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hummm, my old man memory once thought a different number was shared ... possibly a typo.
    Ok, this makes sense. BTW, I recommend seeing what users share:
    upload_2021-10-23_5-45-45.png

    upload_2021-10-23_5-50-44.png

    upload_2021-10-23_5-57-44.png

    The V2, 120 to 150 kW rated SuperChargers, work in pairs, A1+A2, B1+B2, e.t.c. Some legacy SuperChargers are still 120 kW although listed as 150 kW in PlugShare. When you plug in, if another Tesla parks in the adjacent lane, you share the available power. If I'm in a hurry, I have moved to another pair and don't worry about it. Fortunately, Teslas have a triangular shaped charging curve: rapid climb to peak up to about 20% SOC followed by a steady slope down. Two Teslas on the same pair can easily be drawing under the 120-150 kW limit.

    The V3 chargers, 250 kW, have a per lane charge limit but are also subject to environmental limits. Both SuperChargers and Teslas are sensitive to heat over 90 F and will derate charging to avoid damage. Like most things, SuperChargers are also subject to damage and reduced operation. The grid operator has some control too. For example, the Nashville tornado left neighborhoods without power and an adjacent SuperCharger station had only half the lanes operational for a couple of days. Regardless, I've never had a SuperCharger station not provide a charge like we've had with Electrify America CCS-1 stations.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #169 bwilson4web, Oct 23, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  10. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    I've had plenty of issue using Level2 chargers from various charge vendors in my area. I've always had issues with accuracy of plugshare ratings in my area too. The combination can be utterly bewildering at times.
    I watched a youtube titled something like "Cheapest Model S in the Country" maybe 4 years ago. A seasoned Tesla owner / insider? bought a used Model S in Minnesota? and drove it to his parents in Boston? under strict time constraints (having to catch a flight home?). It was one of my favorite Tesla youtube channels while I was still dreaming about being able to own one. :barefoot:
     
  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    They can do what they are rated to do if not too many people are there. What I said was that you can't use all the lanes at once and assume that they can all produce maximum power. They can't. But if they are empty (every one I've ever been to has had zero, one or two cars at it, and only one had two), then they can do what they are rated to do in each slot. But if they are full, you're probably looking at 50kW, no matter what car and state of charge you have.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    What people fail to understand is many L3 charging stations have battery buffers, they are not limited to what the grid provides and don't most days need to pay peak rates.
    https://electrek.co/2019/07/18/tesla-v3-supercharger-station-las-vegas-solar-power-battery/
    Batteries also can stabilize the grid and time shift some wind power to charging times. Now this was supposed to be the advantage of hydrogen - even though the you would lose 50%-90% of the energy in conversion to hydrogen, pressurizing or liquifying, conversion back to electricity you could use cheap electricity or force renewables. Put big enough batteries in these charging stations they can do that too, and with a smart grid stabilize changes.
     
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Curious, I've only seen one other car from a Chevy dealer at a CCS-1 charger when we arrived. All other times the CCS-1 stations have been empty.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #173 bwilson4web, Oct 23, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  14. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I've seen a few different cars at CCS stations and a few Teslas at Superchargers. Never more than two and two was just the other day. Otherwise, always one or zero, usually zero. Now that I think about it, there was the exception of the eclipse traffic and the long lines going into supercharger stations along my route. Fortunately I had the range to not need to stop. We did stop at a gas station to use the bathroom, but didn't fill up.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    There is a Tesla SuperCharger web site:
    Supercharger | Tesla
    • Overview
    • Locations - yes, there are SuperCharger deserts
    • Experience - integrated charging without credit card swipping
    • Speed - for top models but representative of what we see
    • Trip Planning
    • Savings relative to 28 MPG gas
    • Apply for SuperCharger at a business
    A winter trip with SuperCharging:


    Bob Wilson
     
  16. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    His channel has changed quite a bit over the years and many of my old favorite videos seem to be unavailable, like Charlotte to Florida in a beautiful Model S with a White interior on a rainy day.
    Though the one I described in my last post above is still there . ;)

     
  17. dbg1066

    dbg1066 Junior Member

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    Lots of good discussion in this thread. I've only taken one major multi-supercharge road trip, and I'm still learning the ropes. I thought I was being throttled back on charge rate at our last charging stop in Junction, TX, since we had to share with an adjacent same-numbered stall, but when a free unshared one opened up, moving over there didn't change my charge rate, which was fluctuating between 200-300 mph. Earlier charges in the trip had been 400+ mph, but I now realize my battery was over 50% by then, and that slows the rate of charge that can be accepted. I was either hitting that limit, or an overall limit for the entire station (which as LeeJay points out is entirely possible depending on how it is wired/supplied).
    The Union of Concerned Scientists grid "pollution crossover point" from EV to gas map continues to be useful as they continue to update it. Highly recommend it to folks considering Prius, Prius Prime, or full EV. I have watched those numbers change over the years, and yes, Virginia, they show we are cleaning up our grid. Full EV was right for me now, but my second car/gas guzzler is a 2016 Prius, so there's that - being a 2 car family makes for a good backup should we ever decide EV is unsuitable for a given trip. Bella (our Prius) will last at least another 5 years I expect, whereupon the EV and charging landscape will look different enough that we may replace her with the latest EV. Maybe the White Whale of solid state batteries will be coming out by then?

    Tesla currently lists the Y (cheapest options I believe) at $52,690 USD. Price has increased in the last year with materials price increases, apparently. And good Lord, no dropoff in demand since the Model 3 came out, so no incentive to drop prices.

    To bring this post back to thread relevance, I have gathered from other sources that Japan in general will have trouble managing the additional electricity supply needed to go all-electric transport, due to their lack of space for solar, their lack of fossil fuel resources locally, and their recent disastrous experience with nuclear making expansion in nuclear a political nonstarter. Since Japan is Toyota's home market, and since one (yes, complex and inefficient) way to import energy is via shipping in hydrogen (and I've heard there may be plans for Australia to provide this, again complex/controversial based on how the hydrogen might be created), Toyota's continued efforts at hydrogen cars make a lot more sense.

    Toyota is maybe thinking that the EV solution that most of the world needs may be diverging from what is achievable in Japan in the foreseeable future - so they don't spend money on it now.
     
  18. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    I don't believe Toyota has missed the EV-boat (article) thingy. Some might recall when the Toyota/Tesla relationship was different than it is today, at least in the News feeds most can read about. Tesla has/had a long row to hoe a few years ago, before EV cars (boats? :ROFLMAO:) were starting to become a household name. And Tesla has done a great job as a leader of the pack with introducing the current generation of car buyers to this relatively new automobile buying option.
    Toyota though has and still is a leader in the hybrid space, (what is your definition of an EV and all it's derivatives) at a bit of a nicer price point that many of us can justify spending for a car that is still unfortunately outside of the mainstream ICE arena.
    For me it was all about getting up to speed (or changing my driving style to better fit the economics of the Eco movement) in years past, which is one of the ways hybrids were marketed when they first arrived here in the US in bulk.
    The story continues to grow and evolve, as well as other aspects of our society/culture as it transforms into a quantum progressing future.
    Somehow, I believe there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than most of us semi normal types get feed by the current state of News for the masses and even News for the more scientific types as that space continues to evolve as well.
     
    #178 vvillovv, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Just a 'heads up,' more frequent charging stops at a low SOC, ~10%, is the fastest way. The peak charge rate is at the lowest SOC.

    I typically leave with a 30 mile reserve to the next SuperCharger and monitor the indicated battery miles and the navigation miles to the next charger. If I lose a mile or two, I slow down early until the difference remains constant. If I gain miles, I speed up a little. Then when about 60 miles away, I let the pad miles go down until the end when I show ~10 miles to the SuperCharger.

    The energy graph is useful but more accurate if you cancel the destination and then re-enter it. This wipes out the earlier, historical record and has the effect of magnifying the predictive graph.

    BTW, if the navigation map shows a detour from the Interstate, take it! The map knows about construction projects and traffic backup. Take the detour to avoid waiting in a traffic jam. Waze can give similar data with details about the delay. The navigation map shows the detour route but not why.

    GOOD LUCK!
    Bob Wilson
     
    #179 bwilson4web, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  20. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    All 4 Tesla models got price increases again today.
     
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