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now our prius is the family gas guzzler too.

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by galaxee, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Is this something he could do with his bad back? No heavy lifting involved?
     
  2. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    no heavy lifting. but wow, they're taking their time in responding. i think we're going to scrap that idea. if it takes them this long to respond to someone offering to install their systems, i doubt they'd move any faster to send out referrals...
     
  3. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    First off, let me be very clear this is not a criticism of your choice. I just believe in making sure all the info is out there, so that the choices we make are based on all available data. On a small scale, the use of WVO in diesel vehicles is a great way to be carbon neutral, and reduce your transportation costs. You should just be aware that the emissions penalty is pretty severe, particularly the older a vehicle you use. Whether that is a fair trade is up to you, and I will admit that I have been tempted to go this route.

    1985 Mercedes 300d vs. 2006 VW Jetta TDI
    CO2 (g/mi): 480.19 vs. 305.58 (57% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
    CO (g/mi): 1.6 vs. 0.04 (3900% or 40X higher) Poison / Toxic
    NOx (g/mi): 0.82 vs. 0.55 (49% higher) Smog / Acid Rain
    HC (g/mi): 0.34 vs. 0.438 (~even, not same measurement) hydrocarbons, water pollution, ground ozone, smog
    PM (g/mi): 0.5 vs. 0.069 (625% or 7.25X higher) asthma, lung development problems in children, cancer?

    1985 Mercedes 300d vs. 2006 Toyota Prius
    CO2 (g/mi): 480.19 vs. 191.04 (151% or 2.5X higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
    CO (g/mi): 1.6 vs. 0.1 (1500% or 16X higher) Poison / Toxic
    NOx (g/mi): 0.82 vs. 0.01 (8100% or 82X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
    HC (g/mi): 0.34 vs. 0.02 (~17X higher, not same measurement) hydrocarbons, water pollution, ground ozone, smog
    PM (g/mi): 0.5 vs. 0.0 (inf (>12.5X) higher) asthma, lung development problems in children, cancer?

    Running WVO will more or less negate the CO2 and SO2 (big acid rain contributor) but doesn't really affect other emissions. Running BD made from WVO will also mostly negate CO2 (some energy used to convert WVO->BD) and SO2, as well as reduce other emissions by about 1/2 except NOx which will be unchanged. Arguments for BD from unused oil sources get a lot more expensive and complicated with regards to environmental impact.

    Personally I still think plugins provide a more easily scalable solution to near zero emissions/pollution transportation, but the upfront cost is clearly much higher at the current time.

    Here is an example, setting the upfront cost issue aside for the moment:
    In the Phoenix area, a 3kW solar system costs ~$21,000 installed gross, or about $9,000 net after rebates and credits. Over its 20 year warrantied life, it would be expected to put out ~97 MWh (PVWATTS v. 1). This translates to an average kWh price of ~9.3c. Taking charging efficiency into account a Prius in electric mode should cruise at about 300 AC Wh/mile, or a little over 44 EV miles per day on a solar system of this capacity. This would result in an equivalent fuel cost of ~2.8c/mile. At the current average price of gasoline ($3.259) in gas mode the Prius at 50mpg costs 6.5c/mile to run. Nearly full zero emissions/pollution at less than half the operating costs of gasoline sounds pretty nice to me!

    Of course the small matter of the $9,000 up front for the solar system, and ~$20-30k for a 40-50 mile plugin conversion make this less economically practical at the current time. Which is why we need these technologies to be brought into high volume production to reduce cost!

    Rob
     
  4. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    you forgot particulate emissions, i have seen tests showing those are cut in half using wvo.

    absolutely. we are limited in how much waste vegetable oil is available. and this is not the kind of project for everyone, trust me.

    the upfront is the problem for electric. our total investment in this car is under $5k, including literally throwing parts at it (hey, we got frustrated :p ). this was exclusively for the purpose of cheaping out and i will be absolutely up front about that. we're currently living on one income and it's a pathetic number. we make it work by gutting our commute costs.
     
  5. inventor00

    inventor00 Active Member

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    Hang in there!
     
  6. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I had not seen info on PM reduction for WVO, just BD. If you have a source for that I'd love to see it.

    Again, no criticism intended. We all do what we can with what we have. You guys are obviously making much better choices than most, despite your tight circumstance and you should be commended for it!

    Rob
     
  7. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    crap! now i have to go find it again? :lol:

    i've found several references to the study, but am having trouble finding the study itself. damn. i'll look again another time.

    no offense taken, no worries.

    this car's extremely minimal fuel cost makes the difference between having the money for groceries and not, so we're not really at a point where we could change anyway! though it's kinda freeing to see just how little we're able to get by with with and how pleasing such a simple life can be. :)

    inventor, thanks, we're hanging in there just fine. i'm not really all that worried, like i said above we just had to do a lot of simplifying.
     
  8. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    update... :tsk:

    DH has taken it on a few longer highway runs to go to this pain specialist 100something miles away. and on these longer highway speed runs (which he will be doing a lot of this fall) the car bogs down and he has to run on diesel half the time just to keep it running. while this still puts us around 40 miles/gal diesel, it SUCKS to put $70 into that tank every couple weeks. :eek:

    he only has to go one more time to that doc (cross fingers), and in ~2 weeks his 70 mi r/t commute is going to be drastically shortened. he is going to school here in town this summer and it's about 8 miles away on the highway.

    he went through and tightened all the fuel lines, because his first thought was air getting into the system. sure enough, lots of clamps were unacceptably loose. he got another wvo filter, but he's filtering to 1 micron so this should not be an issue.

    this helped, but there's still another issue at higher engine demands. he thinks it's the injector lines. he's going to buy high pressure lines and replace the ones in the car. i hope that fixes it!
     
  9. statultra

    statultra uber-Senior Member

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    maybe the vacuum system on the 300D is leaking, leading to loss of power.
    i have no experience with diesels, but usually when my car bogs down on highway, it would have to do with air, either in fuel line or problems with air intake.

    i really dont know much about diesels, but i would think it has something to do with air intake and the fuel injection of the oil into the engine, maybe the plugs or something.


    just guessing here, i want one of those cholesterol burning machines too, i was looking at a older toyota hilux diesel, i owned a 85 hilux gasoline version, im sure it would be nice to have a pickup truck fueled by some good deep fryers
     
  10. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    diesels don't generate vacuum as a part of the engine operation. it runs just fine on diesel fuel so there's nothing wrong there. it's in the alt-fuel system. we ruled out the injector lines and air in the fuel lines.

    one possibility is that the veg-oil system is vapor locking. or that the filtering process isn't working like it should (down to 1 mircon). he replaced the 16 micron filter the other day and no more problems yet. but we can't afford to go through several filters a month because they're expensive.

    we'll see what happens.

    would have loved a yota diesel, but they're hard to find and expensive.
     
  11. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    well, looks like the wvo filters just generally last 2-3k miles. so while he was racking up all those miles going to the doctors, we were going through filters pretty quickly. this summer we have to get it running at peak efficiency before he starts putting 170 or so miles per day on the thing...

    on another note, the battery conked out while we were gone, it's not coming back to life. this thing has been such a money pit, but by the end of fall semester it will have paid for itself in fuel savings. sooner the way gas prices are skyrocketing.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Do you keep excess WVO on hand, and how long are you willing to let it it sit? You might be able to get a little more life out of your filters by giving anything in the oil a chance to settle to the bottom of the barrel, and skimming the cleaner stuff from the top.
     
  13. Boo

    Boo Boola Boola Member

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  14. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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  15. andyprius

    andyprius Senior Member

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    Hello Galaxee, I know of a rather wealthy individual in Germany who gets all of his waste oil for nothing. He actually has a large surplus and has storage problems. He has been doing this for years. Unfortunately I can't give you any details as he plays it pretty close. Europeans are not quite as open as we are and I do not blame them. Keep us informed on your progress. Andy.
     
  16. PriusSport

    PriusSport senior member

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    On the road, you can fill up at any MacDonalds. Big Mac, fries and used oil, please.
     
  17. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    few comments in reply to recent posts:

    i've read about the grease thefts elsewhere- this guy apparently was selling to a biodiesel firm.

    the *responsible* sect of the greasers secures permission with the restaurant before going ahead. we had talked to the general manager on the phone a couple of times and even met in person once prior to our first pickup.

    the free oil is what keeps us in food :p so i guess you could say that the oil contributes to our future wealth. we are also aiming for a surplus in case of who knows what, but can only take so much at a time.

    i don't think we want anything to do with the gunk that mcdonalds uses though. :eek: :lol:
     
  18. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    gahhh!!!

    f*&% mercedes!

    the thing just died... suspect injector pump (which would explain in part the previous performance issues) bit the dust.

    we're expecting $400 or so for a new one. plus $75 for a tow, and probably $100 in gas while this cursed thing sits.

    *(#&$&*%*^

    *grumbling* where are my damn receipts? i'm going to add up just how much this godforsaken pos has cost us in parts.
     
  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    sorry to hear about your repair issues, gal... but you need to factor the noncost of gas, purchase price of a newer vehicle, etc....

    i believe you are still way ahead... the hopes of having it all for next to nothing these days aint gonna happen...

    in my case (which does not work for most) i now pay an average of $12 a month for "gas" in my Zenn...which is great and all, but it was over $16,000 after taxes, license, etc...and the upgraded motor did not work, so had to send it in to be replaced with standard motor (with software upgrade still does 35 which is all i really cared about... just not quiet as much oomph)

    so i currently have the cost of the motor ($1200) in limbo since the provider of the motor just wants to replace it with another motor, but this is the 3rd of recent installations that have had the same issue, so both me and my dealer are hesitant to do that. so now the dealer is talking with motor provider to determine what i can get back...(at least they hope so. they are ready said if it comes down to it, they will eat the cost)

    another thing you need to look at when repairs are needed. think of what it would cost if you did not have a personal mechanic....
     
  20. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    thanks dave... yeah i know we're going to end up way ahead on this in the end but the frustration of it all just gets to me. and it's not that i expect a free ride, and i know it's an older car, but geez. this thing has seen more downtime than any other 1980s vehicle we've owned (and that's a lot of them in recent years.)

    we've had such a mountain of bullshit to climb lately... this is just the most recent addition to it. :(

    sorry to hear about your zenn, that does suck about the motor not working and the cost being in limbo. $1200 is a lot of money and i hope that gets worked out.