Official RAV4 Prime Review Thread

Discussion in 'Toyota Hybrids and EVs' started by bwilson4web, Jun 9, 2020.

  1. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    That is impressive mileage even if you subtract off the EV range. I live in the same area and also get extremely impressive mileage in my Prius Prime on similar drives in the mountains. For example I can go from my house at 5300 feet, to almost the top of Rocky Mountain national park at 11,000 feet on around 1 gallon of gas and a full charge. It's a 100 mile round trip, and EV mode usually runs out after 20 miles just as I start the long steady climb. I can start at the trailhead with 5% battery remaining, and then drive downhill for 40 miles in pure EV mode just on recovered energy.
     
  2. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Well thought out vehicle with a great EV range. It's no wonder people can't wait to get their hands on these. With the large battery and extended EV range Toyota really ticked all the boxes on the PHEV page.

    It should be enough EV range for most people to drive on electric around home for most trips. If they have to go on a long trip or vacation with the ICE backup and extended gas range no range anxiety or any waiting around to charge up.

    To top it all off it is rolled up into an SUV package which is what people want.

    Bet many other automakers are going to have to work overtime to match this attractive package!
     
  3. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    TFL did 71 mile loop with 95% initial charge the end result was 89 MPG, very good.
     
  4. Terrell

    Terrell Old-Timer

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    Right now, in this country, gasoline is very inexpensive. Currently it's around $2.22/gal. At 40 mpg, the cost is $2.22 to cover those 40 miles. (42 miles would cost $2.33.)

    Where we live, electricity costs $0.134 / kWh. To completely charge the battery, at 120V and a charging rate of 3.3 kW, Toyota says it'll take 12 hours. That would be 39.6 kWh I think? So to charge the battery fully costs $5.31, and it will take you 42 miles.
    [Note posts below, which correct the above guesses]
    So for $5.31, 2.39 gal of gasoline at 40 mpg will take you 95.7 miles compared to electric taking you 42 miles for the same cost. This of course does not take into account the regenerative effect, which Toyota says equals around 94.

    I love my Prius, and I love the wonderful gas mileage I get. I smile when gas prices go up as I drive past. But the reality sadly is that as long as gas prices are as low as they currently are, a Prime doesn't save money running on electric - unless perhaps you charge it by solar and don't count the cost of the solar install! (We have solar.) Still, 40 mpg for a small SUV is wonderful! I'm keeping my eye on it.

    Please correct my calculations if I've misunderstood something.
     
    #44 Terrell, Jul 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  5. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    The 3.3kW charge rate is at 240V. No normal 120V circuit can deliver that much power.

    The battery capacity is only 18.1 kWh, so scrap that 39.6 kWh guess.

    The EPA MPGe rating shows 36 kWh/100 miles. That means 15.1 kWh to go its rated 42 miles:

    Capture.jpg

    ==============

    At your electric rate of $0.134/kWh, it will cost you $4.82 to drive 100 EV miles.
    At your gasoline rate of $2.399/gal, it will cost you $6.31 to drive 100 fossil fuel miles.
    For parity, you need gasoline to drop to $1.83/gallon.
     
    #45 fuzzy1, Jul 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  6. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    The battery capacity is much lower than that. It's 18.1 kWh, but not all that is usable.

    Your error is probably, 12 hour charging is probably on Level 1 at around 1.4kW, and not all of those 12 hours is at the highest power.

    The economics should be similar to the Prius Prime. At $0.134/kWh I would still expect driving on electricity to make sense. A lot of areas around the country have much higher electricity cost, so it might not make sense there.

    Personally, even if electricity isn't cheaper, I'd still rather use it for a few reasons.

    1. Instant torque is more fun
    2. For environmental reasons. Even if the power comes from fossil fuels, usually the power plants are centralized and away from where people live. That means less smog in big cities.
    3. Extracting oil and gas is extremely destructive. I'm fed up with the industry taking every opportunity to secure right in pristine places, like southern Utah, the Arctic, etc, etc. I'm happy to pay a slight premium not to support that. Hopefully this doesn't get too far into politics, but I think not polluting huge swaths of land shouldn't have to be a political issue in the first place.
    4. New technology is fun, even if there's no other point. It's kind of cool to be in a (partly) electric car when 90+% of cars out there are boring old gas cars.

    On point #3, some might argue that most electricity comes from fossil fuels anyway. That is true, but it's changing. Colorado is already at 28% wind power. And for just $0.01/kWh extra, I pay for "100%" wind power at my house. It's not perfect because obviously the power still comes from the same place, but I think it's worthwhile enough. The extra money funds/subsidizes additional wind power.
     
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  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    #0. I make my own electric energy on my rooftop. My PV array has several rack positions unpopulated, just waiting until I have more home energy load as an excuse to populate them.
     
  8. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    The third video: His test drive was on Patterson Road in Odessa, FL. The frame grab below is about five miles from my office!!! I kept thinking that that road looked familiar and then I saw the Silver Dollar sign. They have a skeet range and we can hear them shooting from work. It's one of the rare roads around here that's fin on a motorcycle.

    PS. He turned around less than a mile from my office.

    Screen Shot 2020-07-10 at 4.40.14 PM.png
     
    #48 jerrymildred, Jul 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
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  9. Terrell

    Terrell Old-Timer

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    Thanks! I got the charging rate and hours from the Toyota web site, not knowing the size of the battery, and forgetting that charging tapers off. So thanks for the clarification.

    If it takes 18.1 kWh to charge the battery (and yes it would take more), then the cost of electric is close to the cost of gas. Does anyone know how many kWh it actually takes to charge up the battery?

    I agree with the points you make, which is why I drive a Prius. :) I'm not happy that Wisconsin has now started to tax all Hybrid cars an additional $75/year in addition to what is otherwise charged, and all-electric cars an extra $100. :mad:
     
  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Did you read post #45?
     
  11. Terrell

    Terrell Old-Timer

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    Thanks, Fuzzy. Currently, our gas here is running $2.22/gal, the last two fill ups I made were $1.949/gal, so $5.13 to drive 100 fossil fuel miles. But I expect that gas price is unusually low.

    So thanks, for the further info.

    The next comparison is between the 2021 RAV4 Prime at a starting price of $38,100, and 38/94 est. MPG/MPGe, and the 2020 RAV4 at a starting price of $25,950 and 28/35 MPG. That's a huge price difference of $12,150! Ok, Ok, before everyone jumps on me for comparing apples to oranges, tell my wife that! When I bought my Prius, gas cost around $2.62/gal, and the highest gas cost was in early 2014 at around $3.40/gal. It took ten years to break even on the so-called "Hybrid Premium." That's because I don't drive as much as some people, and gas prices have not stayed high.

    Aside from the very important factors that I love my car, it's the absolute most trouble free car I've ever owned (so far NO major repair), plus I've made some fun modifications which other cars wouldn't be able to handle. But how do I justify a car which looks to be super fun to drive and gets terrific MPG, but costs so much more? Oh, BTW, guess what my wife drives? A regular RAV4, which gets 22.4 MPG.

    So help me build my case. :rolleyes: By the time she might agree, they might be available in our area...
     
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    (1) Federal Incentives: a tax credit of $7500, if you can collect all of it;
    (2) State incentives: in my state, no sales tax on the first $25k, which is about a $2500 savings. Your state would have different incentives, if any;
    (3) Fuel savings: over 150k miles, in all-fossil-fuel mode, the Prime will save about 1400 gallons compared to that 28 mpg version, saving around $3000 to $4000, depending on future gas price variations. And the more of those miles you can push to cheaper electric instead of gas, the more "fuel" savings you get, especially if gas prices rise faster than electric rates.

    Add them all up, and these savings are greater than that $12,150 initial price difference. (We won't talk about the higher insurance and annual registration fees for the more expensive Prime. ;))
     
  13. Terrell

    Terrell Old-Timer

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    Thanks, Fuzzy.
    2) Wisconsin has no incentive (unless something changes in November), but charges an extra $75/year for a hybrid. It would take me 15 years to drive 150k miles, so $1125 in extra taxes. :mad:
    3) Good point.
    4) Towing on the Prime is higher than my wife's RAV4.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Sshh! That was supposed to be a talking point to omit, unless your counterparty is likely to bring it on her own.

    My state is now surcharges $75/year for regular hybrids, $150 for BEVs. I need to read closer for which side PHEVs land on this.
     
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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  16. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    Please remember electrical grids are getting cleaner every single day. And in most places in the country charging at night gets you a pretty decent mix of renewables when many peaker plants are turned off/scaled back. And remember that even if you charge off of 100% coal it is still cleaner than a comparable vehicle ran on gas.
     
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  17. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    @jerrymildred @Tideland Prius @fuzzy1 Question..does anyone know if the Rav4 Prime has the heat pump heater like the Prius Prime does? I would hope so....but it would be a good tidbit to know.
     
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  18. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    Yes, one of the reviews says it does.
     
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  19. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Thanks. I hadn't caught that yet, but I would have been shocked if it didn't.
     
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  20. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Toyota Launches New Model RAV4 PHEV | Toyota | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

    The air conditioner employs a heat pump system that uses the heat from external air to raise the temperature of engine coolant water to heat the vehicle interior. When the air conditioner is on, it controls power consumption and reduction of the BEV driving range.


    As a side (and for future reference), VDA cargo capacity is 490L or 17.3 cu. ft.
     
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