Oil change at 1k miles?

On a new car's engine that's getting broken in, I would definitely change the oil at 1,000 miles. I don't have anything handy YET, but Four Wheeler magazine did an oil analysis on a new pickup's engine that had the oil changed at 1,385 miles: there was a rather high amount of particulate and crud in that analysis. They even recommended doing one @ 500 miles and then again @ 1,000 miles. I don't have the picture handy at the moment, but as soon as I find it I'll post it here. I'd definitely do the oil change. On a new engine there is excess metal in the bearings, in the bearing journals, and so forth that won't destroy the engine but WILL increase wear and tear during your initial break-in period. So, if you're still waiting to do the oil change, my advice is to go ahead and do it. It could extend the life of the car's engine by a few hundred (maybe even thousand?) miles.

-<EDIT>-
Ok, it was actually a new pickup's motor, and the oil analysis was done by Shell Care. I can't scan the results because the lab sheets they printed in the magazine won't turn out and I'd probably be guilty of copyright infringement if I did scan&post the results here. What they did say, though, was that at only 1,385 miles there was a HIGH amount of contamination because of engine break-in. If you want to see the article, it's in the September 2006 issue of FW magazine, pages 74-79.

Or, conversely, you could contact them about the article: 877-652-5295 and ask for an e-print of the Oil Analysis article in the Sept. '06 issue of FW.

Hope that this helps.

 

First off, relax! Life is far too short to worry about problems that are created by advertising punks. The fact is that you do not need to change your oil early to flush out all of the "debris" in the oil pan. Modern engines are very well made, there has been millions of dollars spent on research and developement to make sure that you get a great product. Do you really think that Toyota would put out a product that is going to be junk if you do not change the oil MORE often then they tell you to? Heck NO! Most people are lazy about car maintenance and go past the time/mileage oil change intervals stated in the manuals, you don't see these cars littering our roads? Oil companies are trying to sell you oil, the best way to do that is fear, yes fear. Fear of being a bad person, fear of what debis is floating around in your oil pan, fear that your car will not run as well or as long as it should, fear that the beautiful chick in the car next to you knows that you did not change the oil at 1000mi. Four Wheeler magazine makes money by advertising products, they would tell you anything to make a buck. Change the oil and filter at 5,000mi/6months and feel good that all is well, because you have done more than is needed to keep your car in tippy top shape.

 

If you want to change the oil and filter before the initial 5,000 mile point, that is really a personal decision. If you need help to rationalize the decision, send a sample of the old oil off for analysis. All of the things that the analytical laboratory report finds in the old oil have been removed, which should give you considerable peace of mind. When to do the oil and filter change before the 5,000 mile point? Since the engine is not running all the time, I have decided to stretch the first change to 2,000 miles (instead of my normal 1,000 mile interval). Also, as some have commented, the engine is breaking itself in for somewhere north of the 5,000 mile point. How far past the 5,000 mile point varies by the type of driving you do. If you want to know when the engine has stopped breaking itself in, keep sending samples of old oil off for analysis after each change. When the bearing metal content in the oil analysis results drops, you have just graduated from engine break-in.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ May 12 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]440783[/snapback]</div>

Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. If you want to change the oil, do it. I have been in the bearing business for 19 years. Every new engine (lawnmotor, generator and now Prius) I get, sees an initail amount of running (2-3 hours with lawnmower, generator, 1000 miles on the Prius) and gets an oil chnage with synthetic (Mobil 1). In the case of the car, I drain the factory oil, leave the drain plug off, and quickly pour a qt of good dino oil in and "flush" the crap out of the bottom of the oil pan. Then replace the drain plug and fill with Mobil 1. This is an attempt to get any remaining particles (break-in crap or factory bits) out of the engine. The biggest threat to any bearings is particles of any kind. I am sure the same can be said of the internal parts of a modern engine. But the bottom line is do what makes you happy (as long as it is not hurting anyone else)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GadgetMan2 @ May 13 2007, 03:29 AM) [snapback]440990[/snapback]</div>

This is an interesting variation on the drain process. How does the quick "flush" get more of the break-in crap or factory bits out of the engine than just doing a traditional drain by removing the drain bolt and letting the old oil run out (and replace the oil filter at the same time)? If you are draining the old oil after having driven the engine (so the oil is warm), the break-in crap or factory bits are most likely still suspended in the oil. I am not attacking your approach, just trying to understand the merits to see if I should change how I do an oil drain process.

 

I just changed my oil at 1100 miles. I saw a gray deposit on the dipstick, engine assembly lube probably. So for $13 in parts I decided to change it myself. It was pretty easy, without even raising, and nothing was super tight. The oil came out dark red but clean, no flecks. I drained for 45 mins when the dripping became slow. I was sorry to lose the nice Japan filter to the Toyota replacement. I would like to get a Japan one, but where? I noticed Denso first time fit brand has the silicone anti drainback, and the Toyota Denso one doesn't. Next time I think I will get a Denso FTF or PureOne filter. I used trop artic semi syn, and will change again at 4K, 7k and 10K, then may go to a full syn with 5K. I did fill the filter nearly full before installing, something probably not many oil change mechanics would bother with. Not that it matters to anyone what I do. I did notice the oil, even right after a good driving run, was not nearly as hot as a regular car engine oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr.Vanvandenburg @ May 13 2007, 02:26 PM) [snapback]441210[/snapback]</div>

Filling the oil filter canister before installing it is an excellent measure to minimize dry-running of the engine after an oil and filter change. The problem with many new cars is that they have gone to a filter insert instead of filter canisters due to issues with used oil recovery (it appears to be easier to recover/recycle the filter insert as opposed to the filter canisters).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ May 13 2007, 02:59 PM) [snapback]441145[/snapback]</div>

I do not always change the oil with the engine hot, and my "theory" is once the oil is drained, some sediment will come out, but the "rush" of the oil hitting the bottom of the pan and draiing out "could" carry more sediment then just a drain. I figure the "waste" of $1.50 or so of dino oil "could" do some good, but very improbable will it do any harm. I wish the Toyota drain plug had the magnetic insert my GM vehicle had. You could see a gradual reduction of shavings at each oil change.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr.Vanvandenburg @ May 13 2007, 04:26 PM) [snapback]441210[/snapback]</div>

I attribute this to the fact that the Prius ICE doesn't run as much as a conventional car's over the same distance so the 5000 mile interval is "conservative". My Intrigue's recommended interval is 7500 miles but if I waited that long I'd be rotating the oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spideyman @ May 9 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]438480[/snapback]</div>

I hope you don't do that! There is no reason to change it every 3,000 miles. The dealer is looking to get deeper into your wallet. Our dealer does the 'every 3250' thing. I ignore them. The sales lady even gave us "Of COURSE you'll want to have your oil changed here since it is a Prius" when we picked up my wife's car. Like pulling a plug and changing a filter is REAL special on a Prius and no one else could hope to figure out how to do it right. In fact, they are SO good at it that they:

1. Overfilled the first 2 times on my car, I pulled out 8 oz the second time and brought it down to the max line.
2. Made sure I knew that it was supposed to be 3.9 quarts when I told them to give me half a quart back from the 4 quarts of Mobil 1 I provided the last time.
3. Somehow calculated that 1/2 quart was 14 ounces - The guy even put a mark on the bottle between the unlabeled intermediate marks. I had to add 2 oz just to bring it up to what he SHOULD have put in, then another 2 oz to get it to the max line.

Yep, TOO difficult for just anyone to do, at least too difficult for the guys at my local dealer

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ May 10 2007, 10:03 AM) [snapback]439213[/snapback]</div>

Almost all new engines are broken in at the factory. Particles that are to small to get caught by the oil filter are not going to harm the engine to any extent that it would shorten its life by much. So I get 160,000 miles instead of 165,000 miles....who cares?

Remember, early oil changes do not save energy, money or help the environment.

 

Has anyone ever taken a guess at how much oil is wasted every year by people who change their oil more often than needed? A fool and his money are soon parted. I have never heard of anyone having problems with an engine because the oil was not changed early. The people who do have problems, never change their oil at all. Fear my friends is good for the oil business.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Jul 18 2006, 04:06 PM) [snapback]288302[/snapback]</div>

From my understanding with all the other new vehicles I owned (Hondas & Acuras) there is a different kind of oil installed in a brand new engine at the factory when it's built. It is referred to as "break-in oil" and specifically used only in brand new engines as I mentioned. It has special "emulsifiers" and "suspension agents" added to actually "encapsulate and suspend" those microscopic metal particles that "break-off" the inside of the new engine block and internal moving parts as they "wear and break-in". To take this "break-in oil" out too early is as harmful as leaving it in too long. Some vehicle manufacturers suggest removing this "break-in oil" around 1,000 - 1,500 miles and then changing oil filter, drain plug gasket, and adding fresh "regular" oil (or synthethic MOBIL1 as I did), others suggest as much as 3,500 - 5,000 miles.

I HAVE ASKED THIS SAME QUESTION in another thread in this PrusChat Forum and have not got an valid answer as of yet. We are picking up our brand new 2007 Prius Touring (Pkg. 5) in a couple of days and I want to be "prepared" to change the "break-in oil" at the CORRECT mileage so my gasoline engine will last a long, long, time.

Like I said before and CANNOT stress enough, if removed TOO SOON it does NOT "do it's job" properly, that is "catch" the small metal particles that are harmful.... if left in TOO LONG it actually can do more harm than good in certain cases........... hoping to get a CORRECT ANSWER and soon !!!!!!!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ May 17 2007, 03:59 AM) [snapback]444006[/snapback]</div>

Have you ever "torn-down" and inspected an engine at 100,000 miles and seen what a "neglected" or "long oil change interval" engine looks like ?? Sludge, especially from the "fossil" (NON-Synthethic) motor oils in parts of the engine you wouldn't believe. And if your driving habits are taking lots of short (5 miles or less) trips, water vapor builds inside the engine and does not have time to properly burn off at high temps. Some of the water forms "acid" and most is "suspended" within the motor oil in the pan. This "water" is removed when oil is changed frequently, or at "normal" suggested intervals, like 3,500 - 5,000 miles.
Even using FULL SYNTHETIC Motor Oil (MOBIL1) I change my oil, oil filter (and drain plug gasket) at 5,000 - 6,000 mile intervals. Cost me around $30 for 5 qts. of MOBIL1 oil, a new oil filter and drain plug gasket (I do this myself, don't trust most places !!) So twice (maybe three times) a year I "invest" $60 - $90 into my $28,000+ vehicle.... the same vehicle I put over $2,250 worth of gasoline in.........

 

So far, there have only been two used oil analyses posted at PriusChat of the first engine oil change. Both of them were the highest reported for copper in Prius, and one was highest in silicon.

That amount of copper would not be unusual in other engines, but it certainly appears to be in Prius. We certainly don't know that such an amount of Cu is doing any harm, but it remains a matter of interest.

The high silicon was most likely from engine sealing materials, and not from dirt ingestion. Were it the latter, it could indeed do harm.

Would like to say that the jury is still out on this. If a few more people post analyses of the intial oil change, a clearer picture might emerge. But only you folks with new ones can help with this!

 

When I used to rebuild engines, (many years ago), I used a "Molybdenum lube paste" to coat camshaft journals, lobes, lifters and many other engine parts. You've seen this stuff, that blackish grease that stains clothes and is nearly imposssible to wash out of your fingerprints. I also used lithium white grease and heavy weight motor oil to "pre-lube" parts as I was assembling them. Then there was always a chance of a piece of gasket material breaking off the inside edge of the gaskets and floating around inside, and don't forget to "prime" the oil pump "gears" with grease so you will have immediate "suction" upon starting a newly rebuilt engine.
During "break-in", all this stuff would get "mixed into" the motor oil and trapped in the oil filter. Back then it was a MUST to change the oil after just a few hours...... then run it some more and change oil and filter the next time (after 500 miles or so).
I heard that "today's engines" are built with much closer tolorances, this is why we can get away with 0W-20 and 5W-30 "multi-vis." motor oil as opposed to 10W-40 and 20W-50 used years ago.... but I still say that no matter whether you drive "highway miles" or "city stop-and-go" the 5,000 mile mark is a good place to use as your "normal" oil change interval, whether it be "regular" (fossil) oil or full synthetic. This 7,500 mile and 10,000 mile intervals are just (in MY opinion) too long.......... yet many vehicle Manufacturers recommend this ??
Now I too, am still wondering what "interval" one should use for a PRIUS ENGINE BREAK-IN ????
1,000 miles, 2,000 miles, 2,500 miles, or the full 5,000 miles ????

 

Break-in oil is the first oil put in the engine, there is no special oil used for this purpose that has encapsulating properties. The original question was about changing the oil and filter at 1000mi. The answer is no, there is no reason to change the oil and filter at 1000mi. I have heard a bunch of voodoo stories but no factual data on engine harm to back short change. Oil analysis is not a tool that the average Joe needs to use, remember all of the money put into R&D? Bubba rebuilding an engine and his practices do not compare to modern quality control in engine manufacturng. I have seen the results of people not changing the oil for very long periods (not Amsoil) along with poorly designed engines that run hot and do not provide proper oil flow, this discussion about the Prius and people who do not abuse their cars should not include references to these extreme circumstances.

 

http://www.stretcher.com/stories/02/02feb25k.cfm

Engine Break-In Oil
by Bob DeP.
[email protected]

Bob,
I have heard it said to change the oil in a new car at the 500 mile point to get rid of any small metal particles due to new engine break-in. My new Toyota makes no mention of any type of break-in. What is your opinion on new car break-in actions.
Lee

Lee,
This is something that I am on the fence about. In old days, you had to change the oil at 500 miles because they used a "break in" oil instead of regular oil. The auto manufactures have stopped this practice many years ago.

However, there is some validity to your statement "of removing the tiny particles". Some engines today are made to very tight tolerances, and it would be expected to get some break in wear. But, manufacturing practices as well as materials have come along way over the years.

With all that said, on a brand new car, this is what I have done, personally, on my new car: At the 1500 mile mark, I changed the oil and switched over to full synthetic. Then, at every 3000 miles, I change the oil (again using full synthetic). The car has over 35,000 miles with no problems (as it should with such little mileage). My goal in this strategy is to cure late in life engine failure which usually is due to early in life engine wear. The reason that I chose 1500 miles, is because engine will not break in with synthetic oil. This is the mileage interval that others in the industry have said equates to a fully broken in engine. You can try switching earlier, but I make no guarantees that the rings have been fully seated.
Good Luck!
Drive Safely!
Bob, The Auto Answer Man

 

I found the article ABOVE while Google searching for "break-in oil" !! My 2000 Acura 3.2TL indeed had "break-in oil" in the engine and it even "wrote" about it in the OWNER'S MANUAL and also told the owner just how important it was for this "break-in oil" to be removed (changed) at the CORRECT interval........ that is NOT too soon........ NOT too late !!

I guess I am not up with the times and still living in the past about "break-in oil" and I am sorry if I might have mislead anyone. It was back in the late 60's , 70's and early 80's, the days of the big, American V8's that I did my engine re-building and that is when I "lubed" parts during assembly, and also, I just quoted what I read in my 2000 Acura 3.2TL Owner's Manual about the "break-in oil" !!

Regardless, we traded in our 2003 MDX (today as a matter of fact) and just picked up a brand new 2007 Toyota PRIUS Touring (Pkg. 5) Silver Pine Mica w/gray interior. I forgot to "look" at the MDX owner's manual about specific "break-in oil" but perhaps by the year 2003 the vehicle manufacturers indeed STOPPED putting in this "break-in oil" as they used to do back in 2000 ??

The Toyota Salesman (whose Son is a mechanic for that same dealership) told me that TOYOTA ENGINES ARE FACTORY RUN FOR TWO HOURS EVEN PRIOR TO INSTALLING INTO THE VEHICLE, therfore they are considered "factory pre-broken-in" so to speak. He told me that Toyota actually uses an oiling system that filters, purifies and re-uses this "used" motor oil and keeps cost and waste down to a minimum. He didn't see this "first hand" but actually saw training films of sort, showing this procedure !!

Another thing to remember (as expressed to me today by my Toyota Salesman) is that a PRIUS HYBRID ICE (gas engine) runs probably 75% or LESS of the time (depending on driving conditions, etc.) and therfore 5,000 miles in a Toyota Prius is "equal" to something like 3,700 miles in a "conventional" (gas engine ONLY) vehicle !! On the same thinking........... 1,500 miles on a Prius ICE is really like a "conventional engine's" 1,125 miles.......... so changing a Prius at 1,000 miles might not be allowing it to be "fully broken-in" yet, and by switching at that "early" time to a full synthetic motor oil will NEVER allow the engine to properly "break-in" so to speak !!

He suggested and I fully agree that 3,000 MILES is the "best" initial oil change interval for the Toyota PRIUS and each and every 3,000 miles after that..... Now that was considering "regular" (NON-Synthethic) Motor Oil...... I would say (JUST MY OPINION !!) get the "factory" oil out and change oil, oil filter (and drain plug gasket) at an initial 3,000 miles (your "break-in" period) then if you want to use full SYNTHETIC, like MOBIL1 you should change oil, filter & DP Gasket every 5,000 miles !! Again, just MY OWN opinion !!
:huh:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 18 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]445079[/snapback]</div>

A number of manufacturers that I am aware of use synthetic oil right from the start. Some examples: GM (Corvette, Cadillac and high-end SUVs such as the GMC Yukon Denali have had Mobil 1 in the engine straight from the factory since 2001 (probably earlier, but I have direct experience with the 2001 model year); Volvo since 2000 has put synthetic in as factory fill (again, they may have put synthetic in earlier, but I have direct experience from 2000 onward); BMW uses Castrol synthetic as well (I have personal experience since 2005). There is a chance that the rings may not seat with synthetic oil, but the solution is to replace the synthetic oil and filter with a load of dino oil and filter. I personally have not experienced the rings failing to seat on any of the cars that have had synthetic as factory fill, but I know a friend who has had the experience on a 2005 C6. One load of dino oil later, and after 1,000 miles on the dino oil, his rings are seated and he moved back to Mobil 1. My point in this response is that there may be problems in seating the rings with synthetic oil from the outset, but I personally haven't experienced them, so I am a bit suspicious of an across-the-board generalization.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 18 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]445079[/snapback]</div>

Running an engine for 2 hours before installing in the car is not to be considered to be broken-in. Toyota themselves specify a 600 mile break-in period. At an average speed of say 45 miles per hour in break-in driving, 600 miles equates to 13 1/3 hours, so the 2 hour initial run-in is more of a quality assurance check to see that the engine does not have any leaks or other initial failure(s) before installation in the car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 18 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]445079[/snapback]</div>

Even 75% is a bit arbitrary. I could conceive of an operating scenario where 50% was more likely (exclusively slow-speed stop-and-go driving on level terrain). You really have to evaluate how you are driving during the initial break-in period and make adjustments accordingly. Which is why I have chosen to extend to 2,000 miles the point where I will replace the oil and filter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 18 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]445079[/snapback]</div>

Again, 3,000 or 2,000 miles for an initial oil and filter replacement is a personal decision. The most important consideration is to do an oil and filter change when you do it.