Oil Change question

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by tonypalermo, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I’ll stick to spec for that, with what’s at stake. For permanent housing it’s 18 ft/lbs, and for spin-on 13 ft/lbs, or 3/4 turn past first contact IIRC.
     
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  2. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Spin-on oil filters should always be hand-tightened and never with a wrench. The gasket should be coated with clean engine oil before tightening by hand. Count the number of turns as well (approximately 3/4 turns after the gasket makes first contact with the flange) so that you know you didn't make a mistake. Some people tighten it with a wrench, which could make the removal a nightmare—totally unnecessary and not recommended. You will need a wrench for removal even if you tighten by hand during installation, as it will still get very tight by itself after use.
     
    #62 Gokhan, Oct 16, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I've followed spec, and never had a "nightmare" with subsequent removal. Maybe it's just me, but "hand tighten" seems a wee bit vague. With the spin-on: 13 foot/pounds accomplishes 3/4 turn, fwiw.

    And the Toyota spin-on filter comes with a plastic seal over the gasket. Peal that off and you'll find the gasket is coated with some clear grease, don't think extra oil is needed. To be fair, the box does say to apply oil, but maybe that needs an edit.

    I've been around the block with our 2010's oil changes, twice yearly, coming up on 11 years now.
     
  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    For reference, screen grab from 4th* gen repair manual, with an incredibly cumbersome depiction of a few torque values, for both styles of oil filter:

    upload_2021-10-17_9-18-32.png

    * Quoting 4th gen because it shows both styles of filter.

    And instruction on the spin-on style oil filter box:

    8D6474EF-51E6-4E58-A2DE-DFFE17F2A31E.jpeg
    (Diagonally above and to the left of my top finger tip, there's a very out-of-focus black squirrel, at the base of fence. :))
     
    #64 Mendel Leisk, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Did Toyota actually put the filter in horizontally?:sick:
    Guess you should be thankful it isn't above an exhaust pipe.
     
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Yes.

    Over the years, with various cars, that's what I've typically encountered, and I thought a vertically oriented one (like a cupful) would be better: you'd unscrew it with mininum spillage, up-end it over your catch pan. Our son's Mazda CX-5 is thus, and yeah...: you start unscrewing it, and oil cascades down the sides of the oil filter from above, it's just an oily mess.
     
  7. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    With my hands, "hand tighten" on a good day without my Carpal tunnel syndrome and Cervical radiculopathy symptom would be quite a bit tighter than on a bad day with my finger numbness and pain. I haven't done an oil change on PP's new spin-on filter, but I have done it on both my son's Honda and my wife's Nissan. Honda manual mentions no specific "tightness" on the spin-on filter while the Nissan manual says "Screw on the oil filter until a slight resistance is felt, then tighten additional 2/3 turn." I always go by this additional 2/3 turn either with my hand or with a filter wrench.
     
    #67 Salamander_King, Oct 17, 2021
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  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Honda typically says 3/4 turn past first contact. Here's excerpt from 2010 Pilot Shop Manual (our daughter had one, so I scooped a pdf):

    upload_2021-10-17_12-39-39.png
    And previous page, same story, plus a torque value:

    upload_2021-10-17_12-40-54.png

    Far as I know, with Honda the filter's pretty ubiquitous, they're using one style on all their vehicles.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Most of the Fords were at a 45 degree angle, over a exhaust pipe. The 2016 Camry is vertical, and mine is a cartridge. The replacement comes with a spigot that snaps into the bottom for draining the filter. You could attach a hose to it if desired. The GM Ecotecs were the best, with a cartridge filter at the top of the engine.
     
  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Even though using the same OEM Honda filter, maybe the manual description is different on different models. Yeah, the procedure and tightening spec may be the same for all models, though. I never did oil change DIY on my other gas-only Civic and HCH, so I don't know what the manual said on the oil filter tightness. But for my son's CRZ, the owner's manual mentions nothing about how tight the filter should be. However, it does specify the toque for the drain bolt.

    upload_2021-10-17_16-28-47.png
     
    #70 Salamander_King, Oct 17, 2021
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  11. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The problem is that the difference between 0.75 turns and 0.76 turns, which is not measurable, can be a factor of two in torque. When the rubber enters the inelastic region, the torque starts increasing exponentially with rotation. Therefore, do not insist on the exact amount of turns. As I said, hand-tightening has never failed with anyone as far as I know.
    Yes, the grease helps, but you must still apply fresh engine oil. It will reduce the torque necessary to reach 3/4 turns and make the removal easier, too. Some oil-filter gaskets come coated with PTFE instead of grease, but they also require fresh engine oil.
     
  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Just curious, are you saying "hand tightening" will not have the same problem of inaccuracy as relying on the exact amount of turns? It's hard to believe if someone with a very weak grip and power will tighten exactly the same level as another person with a much stronger grip and power. Just as an example, although not oil-filter but still, if my son hand-tighten a jar lid, my wife can not open it. If my wife hand-tighten a jar lid, the lid leaks.
     
    #72 Salamander_King, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  13. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The point is that if your grip is not exceptionally weak, hand-tightening is OK. The torque doesn't need to be close to the spec and can be much lower, and it won't leak. Even the official Toyota oil-change instructions I posted here OK both hand-tightening and wrench-tightening.

    Official 2020 Toyota Prius Prime oil-change instructions | PriusChat

    While wrench-tightening and the torque spec is meant to reduce failures, in reality, they cause headaches in removal, especially if the torque is wrong, and hand-tightening won't fail as long as you can get it close to the specified turns within about 10° by applying a modest strength.

    Screwing on a spin-on oil filter is no different than screwing on a jar lid or screwing on the oil-filler cap. Don't use a wrench to tighten any of them. You can use a rag to apply more torque—it would help your wife with the jar lids.
     
    #73 Gokhan, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  14. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I get your point. But...
    It sounds contradictory. Never use a wrench vs. either method is OK. If it is Never as you say, then I am sure that would be on the official Toyota instruction, I would think. That being said, I don't usually use a filter wrench on installing the filter, that's because my wrench has a tendency to get stuck on the filter casing. It is sometimes hard to remove it when this happens. Therefore, I only use the wrench for removing the filter.
     
  15. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    13 ft-lb of torque specified by Toyota is somewhat excessive so that the installation will be on the safe side without making the removal a nightmare. Can you apply that much force by hand? If you are strong and use gloves or a rag, possibly, as it is a 120 lb of hand-twist force with the 65 mm Toyota OEM oil filter (part number 90915-YZZN2) and about a 100–110 lb of hand-twist force with the larger 75 mm oil filters. In practice, half or less of that force/torque should be sufficent to attain 3/4 turns, which is all you need. 13 ft-lb of torque will probably exceed the turn spec by about 10 degrees. It is still not much torque; therefore, squeeze very gently if you are using a regular wrench, as you must be applying only about a 15–20 lb of force. Many people will end up pulling it with a 100 lb of force, overtorquing it six times and therefore making the removal a nightmare, requiring a claw-pliers type oil-filter wrench or hammering a large nail into the oil filter.
     
    #75 Gokhan, Oct 18, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  16. Colorado Boo

    Colorado Boo Member

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    Anybody change the filter on an FJ7? It's up on top next to the radiator! SWEET! Why can't all Toyota's have this? I also like those horizontal filters...you just crack them loose and the oil drains out...much less messy. (But always wear gloves, folks, dirty engine oil has stuff you don't want getting onto your skin and into your bloodstream.)

    There are many ways to do your own oil change. Personally, using those drive up ramps is my least favorite because they can tend to slide around. Instead, I'll use the jack notches on the side of the vehicle and lift the car with my floor jack then slide the ramps under the tire. If you have 4 ramps this is an easy way to lift all 4 tires up which is good when doing a transmission fluid change or differentials or transaxles or a lube job. I have a Tundra so gets a lube job yearly and all differentials are drained and filled every 2 years. (I do a lot of 4x4 driving during our Colorado snow storms.)
     
  17. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    For cars and other vehicles that have oil filters that hang vertically and require the removal of an underbody panel by taking off many fasteners, my dad's friend who services a fleet of vehicles, cut a four inch hole into the plastic with a hole saw directly under the oil filter.

    This allows removing and installing the filter without removing the under panel.

    For security, he uses one of these four inch hole plugs.



    For Mendel, search, 4" 4.0 inch Flush Mount Black Plastic Body and Sheet Metal Hole Plug Qty 5 on Amazon.
     
  18. MTN

    MTN Active Member

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    My VW had a cartridge, down-facing, right up top with super easy access. I never cracked the drain plug - just used an extractor.
    Ramps would never work for me b/c oil changes are also tire rotations. Don't care if my tires came with lifetime rotations - too much hassle to schedule those. DIY and done right, IMO.

    My R4P and wife's PP are still under Toyota Care, so we'll utilize those free services (well, actually baked into MSRP). It felt weird taking my car in for an oil change - first time since the 90's and my first car that I didn't DIY. It'll be a couple years before I need to change the oil myself - got some Pennzoil 0w16 I'll sell for cheap if anyone is around central/so Cal lol
     
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