1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

One In 10 New Vehicles Will Be Diesel In 2015

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by massparanoia, May 2, 2012.

  1. massparanoia

    massparanoia Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    697
    467
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    You can get diesel exhaust fluid at wal mart for 7 bucks a gallon.
     
  2. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    3,156
    440
    0
    Location:
    Eastern Europe
    uh, cleaner than before yes, virtually eliminating emissions? no.
    New 2014 rules will be even stricter than today's... thats just standard LEVIII... SULEV and such wont be reached by diesels anytime soon.
     
  3. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    3,156
    440
    0
    Location:
    Eastern Europe
    Base LEVIII NOx yes (slightly less than before), but for PM, 40% reduction in 2014 and 70% reduction in 2017 from current standards.

    Also much stricter fleet emissions:

    Which means that if you want to sell significant amount of diesels, they will have to do better than LEVIII in order you to sell them because fleet average is 5.3x less than LEVIII.

    Unfortunately Euro6 coming in 2014 is still considerably easier on emission than even today's LEVII (70%).

    As to the SCR, to my knowledge, it is still applied to the DPF so yes, DPF reduces fuel mpg and performance.
     
  4. wxman

    wxman Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    619
    224
    0
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Virtually eliminating PARTICLE emissions. Even CARB acknowledges that a diesel car they tested had particle emissions that were indistinguishable from background dilution tunnel air (and CARB is ANYTHING but a diesel proponent). Direct quote from that report...

    ("California’s Informal Participation In The Particle Measurement Programme (PMP) Light Duty Inter-Laboratory Correlation Exercise (ILCE_LD)." Final Research Report, October 2008, http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/veh-emissions/pmp-ld/CARB_Golden_Vehicle_PMP_Report_Final-05JAN09.pdf (page 28))

    The 2012 MB E350 BlueTec comes very close to meeting SULEV (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/daimler_pc_a0030427_3d0_u2_diesel.pdf). It hits the SULEV limit for NOx (0.02 g/mile); it's only slightly high on NMHC (0.015 g/mi, the SULEV limit is 0.010 g/mi) which keeps it from achieving official SULEV classification (it easily meets ULEV). So it's close enough to preclude a conclusion that diesels can't hit SULEV, IMHO.
     
  5. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    2,287
    460
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    As far as I am aware, SCR is a separate after-treatment specifically used to reduce NOx. In fact, I believe that it would specifically be separated because contamination is a problem.

    Although it requires urea solution, it's relatively cheap and allows for more efficient combustion that produces fewer particulates. As with DPF the key problem is that diesel owners need to keep them working.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,595
    11,220
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Regen to clean the DPF is what reduces the MPG, and more so in low speed city driving. Manufacturers are working to decrease the number of regen cycles. Not following the field closely, they might have reduced the number from earlier gen DPFs.

    SCR fluid is sprayed into the exhaust before the catalytic convertor. The DPF plays no part with SCR. Diesels without SCR use EGR*. People would defeat the EGR on early smog control diesels. They would also defeat the EGR on gassers for the same reason.

    The reduction of performance and economy that is happening to diesels do to emission controls also happened to gassers in the late '70s and early '80s. Power and economy don't seem to be an issue for them anymore. With the gained knowledge from then, the transitory period should be shorter for diesels. We might already be past the big hump with it.

    I wouldn't rule out the change in EPA testing coloring the public's views on what emissions controls has done to diesels. It happened between DPF requirements and NOx controls.

    *It appears VW uses a NOx trap that needs to be cleaned like the DPF in the Jetta.
     
  7. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    6,722
    2,120
    45
    Location:
    North Yorkshire, UK
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    If diesels are dirtier because urea is added and pumped out of the exhaust, then what about the heavy metals pumped out of petrol car exhausts from the catalysts?

    I'm sure I've read that on some roads in America where catalysts have been used for decades, that it is commercially viable to extract precious metals from the road side. Obviously that isn't going to happen, but the fact that these precious metals are there in such numbers is quite alarming isn't it?
     
  8. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    3,938
    1,351
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    BMW recalling 24,000 Diesel vehicles over emission problems!
    Posted May 4th 2012 6:01PM

    BMW recalling 24,000 vehicles over emissions problem
     
  9. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    2,168
    764
    0
    Location:
    Portugal
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Hmmm....

    To be clarified...

    Urea is added to promote NOx break down...helps pumping molecular Nitrogen and Water instead! Urea is totally consumed for this purpose.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction]Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    The metal of catalysts does not get consumed at all. And the end of the process (end of life) it gets into the recycling procedures and viably reused.
    [So does Nickel from NimH Prius batteries and Lead from 12V batteries]
     
  10. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    6,722
    2,120
    45
    Location:
    North Yorkshire, UK
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    1 person likes this.
  11. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    2,168
    764
    0
    Location:
    Portugal
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A

    Good to chat about... :)

    Half-surprise, rare metals are not meant to be consumed, but...

    ...some may effectively come out of a breaking layer of a catalyst pot...and be more present in road dust than in the mining soil...

    But I wouldn't consider that a "pump out of the pipe"... ;)
     
  12. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    6,972
    3,209
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
  13. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    Interesting GC, I have not heard of any such USA studies to show the enviro traces of Pt from the catalysts. Actually I am aware of studies to collect dust and see what's in it (eg; pollutants). But I have never heard that they found any Platinum in it.
     
  14. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    3,156
    440
    0
    Location:
    Eastern Europe
    NMOG+NOx are 2.5x worse than 2014 LEVIII SULEV standard, which will have to be warrantied for 150k miles.

    It is also 830% worse than Prius G3 NMOG+NOx emissions.

    Thats a lot worse.
     
  15. justlurkin

    justlurkin Señor Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    499
    63
    0
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Just to clarify, metals like platinum and palladium are generally inert and resistant to corrosion, so unlike reactive heavy metals such as lead, they are not toxic to most living things.

    In fact, palladium is used by dentists in crowns and other prosthodontic devices that are put into human mouths, and platinum has been used as a jewelry metal.

    So I wouldn't classify the trace amounts of platinum or palladium coming out of a car exhaust as harmful pollution like CO or NOx.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. wxman

    wxman Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    619
    224
    0
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I don't follow how you arrived at those numbers.

    LEVIII will actually have two "SULEV" categories - SULEV30 and SULEV20 (
    Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks?California). The E350 BT has certified emissions of 0.015 g/mile NMHC plus 0.02 g/mile NOx, for a combined 0.035 g/mile HC+NOx. 0.035/0.030 = 1.167 times worse than the SULEV30 standard. I would think a little more robust oxidation catalyst could reduce the NMHC emissions enough to hit SULEV30? You're correct that the FUL standard has been increased to 150,000 miles.

    The Prius has certified emissions of 0.005 g/mile NMHC and 0.003 g/mile NOx, for a combined 0.008 g/mile HC+NOx (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/toyota_pc_a0140763_1d8_pz_hevge.pdf). It will meet the SULEV20 standard when implemented. 0.035/0.008 = 4.375 times worse.

    Nissan claims to have developed a SULEV diesel car (SULEV Level Clean Diesel Technology | NISSAN | TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES). However, since Nissan doesn't offer any diesel cars in the USA, this is just an academic achievement at this time.
     
  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,668
    6,483
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Re: One In 10 New Vehicles Will Be Diesel In 2015

    Maybe.

    Re: One In 10 New US Private Passenger Vehicles Will Be Diesel In 2015

    Aint. Gonna. Happen.
     
  18. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    3,156
    440
    0
    Location:
    Eastern Europe
    I was looking at wrong table... so E350 CDI - 0.035 g/m... Prius 0.008 g/m, only 530% higher than Prius? Or rather it takes more than 5 Prii to pollute the same as E350 CDI with very expensive urea and DPF systems. And Prius has no expensive DPF.

    150,000 mile requirement will probably introduce more costs for manufacturers of diesels as well.

    For instance, MB UK sells both BlueEfficiency E350 CDI with 265hp and BlueTec E350 CDI with 211hp... I assume one is EuroVI spec and other is EPA spec.

    Bluetec is $3k more expensive and you get 50hp less from same engine, just to satisfy extra emissions. Compared to 4cly turbo petrol with 204hp, it is $12k more expensive.
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    3,938
    1,351
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Diesel fumes cause cancer, says WHO | Science | guardian.co.uk

    http://press.iarc.fr/pr213_E.pdf
     
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,525
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    +1
    But most of us already knew that.

    Diesel Engine Exhaust Causes Lung Cancer: WHO - Businessweek


    Which makes me wonder what levels are safe? Why do diesels have different numbers than gasoline engines if they are unsafe?

    It makes me glad that the US has been largely more concerned about diesels unhealthy exhaust than the reduction in greenhouse gasses. But the study does not say the newer "clean" diesels are worse than gasoline.