Featured Open Letter To Toyota USA: Go All In On The Prius Prime, Kill The Regular Prius Hybrid

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    4,769
    2,779
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    In an EV vs Hybrid comparison, I agree. In terms of EV vs the average car, the EV still comes out ahead, even if charged on the virtually non-existent coal only grid.

    I like my fusion power car, and more and more people are discovering they do as well ;)
     
  2. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    1,961
    1,233
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Even if there is "no benefit" as you say...that means there is no disadvantage either.
    However, the ICE car bought today will never get a benefit, while an EV (or PHEV) could get cleaner in the future as the grid improves.

    There are also other definite advantages besides CO2, such as:
    - less money going to oil (OPEC) while electricity (even from coal) is largely domestic in most locations
    - less local air pollution in cities, even if smog moved to power plant locations (and could be cleaner overall)
    - buying EVs and PHEVs spurs more investment in improving battery technology and EV infrastructure
    - less oil means less need for gas stations. Some percentage of all stations leak pollutants to ground water.
    - charging a car doesn't stink like gassing up

    Even if a Prius (not Prime) is very clean, which it is, you must still compare to average gas cars since everyone isn't going to buy a Prius


    Mike
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  3. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    2,676
    2,135
    12
    Location:
    Chesterton, Indiana Another third world country.
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    If you believe Consumers Report in their latest magazine I got just yesterday it says.

    Ratings: Yes, I'd Buy it Again! Consumer Reports identified the models in 23 categories that members say they would spend their money on again, and those they would skip.

    Compact Hybrid/Electric Cars

    Chevrolet Bolt 86
    Toyota Prius 86
    Nissan Leaf 83
    Toyota Prius Prime 82
    Kia Niro 80
    Chevy Volt 78
    Hyundai Ioniq 72
    Toyota Prius C 68
    BMW i3 61

    Just by the numbers it looks like people with a standard Prius are slightly more satisfied than with the Prime. If Toyota looks at this
    and I am sure they will why would they want to do anything different, it is still working for them.
     
  4. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    3,860
    1,658
    33
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Something tells me Toyota sees the big picture a little clearer than most think.
     
    m.wynn, telmo744 and padroo like this.
  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sidewalk Supervisor

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    32,047
    21,028
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Yeah but they may be penny wise and pound foolish. Maybe I'm atypical, but I can't stomach the fourth gen. Mechanically a very sweet car, but ugh.

    To: the ever spreading "tire repair kit", the "ipad in the dash", the whole rolling sculpture mentality: I think they're losing direction. Things can be fine, until they're not.
     
    Richard2005 likes this.
  6. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    2,676
    2,135
    12
    Location:
    Chesterton, Indiana Another third world country.
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Buy a black one like I did and just drive it at night. :D
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    12,941
    5,343
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    There is no direct, carbon free replacement for gasoline in most markets. Brazil has E100, but their farming practices is likely making up for the carbon reduction of the fuel. Buying offsets doesn't change the fact that the ICE dumps a lot of carbon into the air over a short time, and the consumer is mostly at the mercy of the off set companies' honesty.

    Diesel has more replacement options, but their availability is market dependent.

    Home, and BEV, energy can be supplied renewably without being tied to the grid. Then there is only carbon emissions for the component production. Grid tied is just cheaper, making it a better bang for the buck in terms of overall carbon reduction.

    Hydrogen could be done renewably, but it is not cost competitive with plug ins.

    That's the charger. It could be relocated.
     
  8. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    38,778
    10,076
    40
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    That’s the location of the NiMH battery for vehicles with the solar panel. I think the standard converter is also located there.

    Well how many of those “would not buy again” is not because it’s a bad car but because they want to move on to a BEV?
     
    mozdzen likes this.
  9. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    2,676
    2,135
    12
    Location:
    Chesterton, Indiana Another third world country.
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    I'm just the messenger.
     
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    76,997
    32,363
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i won't go back to a non plug in, and preferably to a bev when the time is right. but have no idea what the percentages or numbers are
     
    markabele and Sarge like this.
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,224
    4,079
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    We already know that's what happened, no theory necessary. Prime was originally intended with a smaller pack. Flexibility of the design allowed a larger one to be used instead. It didn't fit well... physically, but it was a better fit for the emerging market and still fit within the affordable goal. So, Toyota felt it was fitting.

    That responsiveness to market is what we saw with Prius PHV. Back in 2010, the prototype had a raised floor... exactly like we have now. I drove one around for a short span and didn't see any issues with it. When the 2012 was finally rolled out, they decided to scale back from the 5.2 kWh capacity to 4.4 kWh for a better fit. Since it was just a mid-cycle upgrade, no big deal. We'd find out what the first true generation would offer "soon" anyway, not realizing how just how complicated the resistance to change would become.

    The problems GM had forced Toyota to be responsive to market uncertainty, of which Volt enthusiasts created. Choosing to rollout Prime into limited areas only to test the waters with a larger pack, while waiting for that fallout to take place made sense... but made enthusiasts crazy, despite the obvious benefit from waiting. Now, we see tax-credit reduction just weeks away, as well as the discontinuation of Volt... a path cleared for Toyota to launch an assault.

    This topic addresses the possibility of Toyota going all out, by killing the regular Prius. A logical step to preparing for such a move would be to rollout a mid-cycle update to align Prime according. Lack of 2019 model inventory seems to be setting the stage for an early 2020. Think of the opportunity Toyota has from having waited until the timing was right.
     
    #151 john1701a, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
    Prius Pete and LasVegasaurusRex like this.
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    76,997
    32,363
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    thinking...(n)
     
  13. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    2,676
    2,135
    12
    Location:
    Chesterton, Indiana Another third world country.
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Both of my local dealer only have 1 Prius each. Not selling or can't keep them on the lot? Not selling is my guess.
     
    mozdzen likes this.
  14. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    706
    294
    0
    Location:
    Phoenix
    Vehicle:
    2015 Tesla Model S
    Don't know if I've posted these here yet, but there is much reason for optimism, as more and more studies are showing.
    This one is an easy read:
    EVs, Oil, And ICE:  Impact By 2023 And Beyond | Seeking Alpha

    This one is a video, but is long and I'd recommend to view it at 2x speed to make it shorter. Pause when you see something extra interesting.

     
  15. DThrill

    DThrill New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2018
    5
    6
    0
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I concur

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  16. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2016
    15
    6
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Totally agree .. large amounts of the US population (95% ?) are still buy highly polluting ICE cars and one of the big challenges is how to get them to choose cleaner alternatives … Hybrid, PHEV or BEV … over the short medium & longer terms.

    I suspect most of these 95% are not going to buy a Prius .. whether Toyota expands the battery of the Prime or not.
     
  17. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2016
    15
    6
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    So what are your thoughts on what they might do with 2020 Prime ?
     
    #157 Richard2005, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2019
  18. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    998
    628
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    Back in the day...
    I was able to buy a Volt at a local dealer at a killer price in the least EV friendly state of the union.

    Now that the Volt doesn’t exist maybe the Prime will become locally available?
     
  19. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2016
    15
    6
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    So why did Toyota only sell in certain states .. was that because only those state had subsidies ? Or was it because the Volt was only sold in those states ? In Aus we don't have Prime but we did have the Volt for 2 years I think.
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    12,941
    5,343
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Major changes wise, we might see a bench seat in the rear. I don't see Toyota investing to a change in the pack shape for a mid-cycle refresh.
    There are two regulatory bodies for car emissions in the US; federal and CARB.

    CARB is California's standard, and multiple states have signed up to use it. CARB has a ZEV program pushing plug ins and hydrogen in which manufacturers need to earn credits for. It is why many BEVs are only sold on the West Coast. The PiP only went out to states that had signed on the CARB for that reason. There are non-CARB states with plug in incentives that did not get the PiP.

    The Prime, and most other plug ins, got shipped to those CARB states first. The Prime is starting to become more available outside of those states now.

    A further wrinkle, the Toyota distributor for the South East of the country is independent, and sets what models it gets. They appear to not care for the Prime.
     
    bisco likes this.
Loading...