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Paleo CO{2} and

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Nov 1, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Inspired by this posting:
    I tried the nature.com web site but once again, frustration. Please post links to such stories but a silver lining, I found something else:
    Why does CO2 lag temperature?
    Bob Wilson
     
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Ah Skep Sci again...not the most popular here you know :)

    Nature article
    doi:10.1038/nature13799
    I did not expect it to be hard to find. Without permission I show their Fig. 1 here. The bottom two squiggles are CO2 and temperature from their new, better-resolved Antarctic ice core. In the first two 'bumps' CO2 and T seem tightly linked in time. The third bump has T leading CO2 by about 1000 years, which is has has been inferred from lower-resolution ice cores in the past.

    About two years ago (?) I posted a link here to a study of marine sediments that suggested much tighter correlation between T and CO2 than the classical 1000 (or 800) years. Shall I go back and look for that?

    CO2 fig 1.png
     
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  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Bob, I wish you would focus your rocket skills on why nylon/nitrous engines test well on the ground but apparently not at 15 km altitude. Climate can wait...
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks! That is one gnarly looking set of graphs. I'll have to get the article. I see the methane step function but the first set is a bit obscure to me.

    As for the hybrid engine, I might speculate that the ground, static testing might not have include acceleration in the linear axis. This would require mounting the engine at an angle with the maximum being vertical or 1 G. As the vehicle accelerated, the solid propellant would be subject to a force along the linear axis and that might have led to a chunk/slug breaking off and going into the oxide flow. More exposed area, the pressure would spike. Then comes the question of a pressure relief, blow-out disk BUT this is pure speculation.

    The oxidizer tank could have ruptured. The control valve failed. A structural member failed. A flight surface suffered an aerodynamic-coupled vibration failure. . . . there is a long, long list of failure mechanisms.

    In a perfect world, there would have been an unmanned flight test with parachute recovery. But this program is following the shuttle program plan. Fast and cheap with insufficient attention to failure modes . . . says the guy sitting safely at home with fingers on keyboard.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    For me, the oddest aspect of the gnarly graph is labelled WDC CH4. It shows three step changes. The two up could be considered possible by way of methane clathrate release, although they would need some sort of trigger. However, I can't imagine a mechanism for getting methane out of the atmosphere so suddenly. It is gradually oxized by hydroxyl radical. That 'OH dot' is totally the rate limiting step. This means that adding more methane does not make the reaction happen faster.
     
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  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    The only images I have seen of hot-fire testing have the engine oriented straight down. Exhaust plume straight up. Is that what you meant, or exactly the opposite?

    Probably we should talk rocketry in the ongoing FHoP thread.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Preliminary wreckage found the engine and oxidizer tank intact. Current data suggests that while supersonic the 'shuttle-cock' mechanism was unlocked while under powered flight.

    I will get the paper and agree the methane data does not look right.

    Bob Wilson