Penn Teller: BullSh!t

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LaughingMan @ May 24 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]448846[/snapback]</div>

I also saw the show - and I'm somewhat of a fan. As you mentioned, the anti-Prius part of the show was pretty weak. The whole point was to argue about "Hippie" attitudes that are hurting society more than they help.

In any event, their arguments weren't enough to make me think twice about buying my Prius - probably wouldn't deter any future buyers either. I think they would have been better off comparing the Prius to a Hyundai Elantra instead of a Corvette.

 

The whole Prius segment was weak and in many instances factually wrong. Some wrong facts

1. The Prius does not have "pickup" because it has two engines that add weight.

Actually the feeling of "pickup" and abundant acceleration are wasteful and you would not want them in a Prius. The Prius is optimized for efficiency of both engines at cruising speed.

2. Its ugly.

Come on!!

3. Low MPG compared to other cars.

Other cars that are half the size of the Prius and without the "extras" Toyota has thrown in the Prius.

4. Low interior capacity

For this one they are just smoking! The Prius has more interior space than any mid-size sedans with half the mpg.

Any other incorrect facts? I lost interest in BS since the gun control and second hand smoking episodes. They carry their libertarian views beyond what the facts permit.

 

When I want to assess the reliability of a source for information I am unfamiliar with, I look at what that source says about a subject that I do know about. P & T have addressed two topics I know something about. I rented a DVD of a few of their shows, and it included the smoking segment. And now their show about the Prius, which I didn't see, but based on the above reports, I see what they are saying.

In both cases where I know the material, they are full of sh!t.

For this reason, I would not trust them on any subject where I really didn't know the subject. They are entertainers, and apparently are successful. Someone said above that they put on a good show in Las Vegas. Their goal is to shock and to entertain, not to inform, and their information is completely unreliable. I am sure that everyone who dislikes hybrids, or Japanese cars found their lopsided comparisons very amusing, and was reinforced in their negative emotions towards the Prius and Toyota.

Bravo P & T! You have done your bit to retard progress!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ May 24 2007, 09:31 AM) [snapback]448977[/snapback]</div>

I think they left out one glaring weakness of the Prius:

Toyota could have made a super economy version, without all the fluff technology, and made it within financial reach of people who would be willing to spend up to $15K for a car.

They are marketing it to basically upper middle-class professionals who like technology. That is a small segment of society.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theforce @ May 24 2007, 07:53 AM) [snapback]449028[/snapback]</div>

They get their point across very effectively. And their point is usually bullsh!t. This seems the wrong thread to argue the specific issues you agree with them on. But I do not share your (their) views.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theforce @ May 24 2007, 10:53 AM) [snapback]449028[/snapback]</div>

There is a HUGE difference between "getting the facts right" and "getting your point across". Fox "news" is exceptionally sloppy with the former, but quite effective at the latter.

 

I think P&T are variable in their accuracy. They certainly try to justify their libertarian views at any cost. I certainly enjoyed their show on the bible, fundamentalism and intelligent design.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ May 24 2007, 08:39 AM) [snapback]448983[/snapback]</div>

Are you sure about that $15,000 figure?

*The Prius a purpose built platform, so they couldn't have made it smaller/a two door hatchback/changed the architecture.
*The basic package is fairly decontented already, I think.
*The tires and wheels are not exactly top dollar items.
*Acceleration is moderate at best, so there's not much room to make it slower/install a cheaper drivetrain (short of removing the hybrid stuff altogether).
*Handling, too, is average, and the suspension is already designed for low cost.
*The base stereo is pretty base and feature-less by today's standards...

I suppose you could remove the stereo entirely, and perhaps the right hand side view mirror, get rid of the LED taillights and replace them with incandescents...put in manual windows(??)...but, short of filling the void in the IP with a piece of plastic where the MFD is, I'm not sure what else could be removed from the car, to reduce its price by almost 50%.

Now, with the new Prius A, B, C, there might be a chance for this to happen (the $15,000 price is so low that it has to be designed down to, vs. de-contented)...we'll see.

Do you think it might be easier for another company...say, Kia or Hyundai, to sell something like this? People generally don't tend to expect as much from these nameplates, quality-wise.

 

I would buy a $15K 2 seater Prius with a stripped down look and feel. Imagine the proven prius drivetrain with a lot less weight and you have a vehicle that will carry two people and get 65-75 MPG average. I bet they would sell like hotcakes.

as for Penn & Teller, Oy vay shmear,who cares?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KD6HDX @ May 24 2007, 05:37 PM) [snapback]449407[/snapback]</div>

Of course they would...'cause Toyota would be taking a loss on each and every one!

Gosh, in the spirit of a decontented Prius, do you think I could buy a new 'decontented' Porsche Carrera Turbo for, say...$35,000?

All they'd have to do is get rid of the 'fluff electronics' and cover the seats in fabric...would *easily* knock $110,000 of the price!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theforce @ May 24 2007, 09:53 AM) [snapback]449028[/snapback]</div>

You mean Kent Hovind the convicted swindler that gave us the creationist museum?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ May 24 2007, 06:39 AM) [snapback]448983[/snapback]</div>

The Prius is Toyota's showcase for their most advanced technology. They compromised by making it sufficiently comfortable that it would not make the hybrid technology look shoddy, without making it a super-luxury car. Had the first HSD car been a cheapo econobox it would have been severely criticized for that, and nobody would have seen the outstanding technology.

Toyota is committed to offering all their models with a hybrid drivetrain, which means the more economical cars will be available as hybrids in time.

 

I missed this episode when it was first shown last May.
I finally caught it the other night, and to say the least, I was very disappointed.

Look, I am a big fan of the show. I am a Libertarian, and enjoy watching their review of social issues. More to the point, I love seeing our culture's sacred cows get the shaft.
But they harmed their credibility with this show.

Like a certain popular award winning "documentary" filmmaker, they let exaggerations, innuendo, misdirection and simple lies take the place of the truth. People like this don't seem to realize they can make strong valid points without this garbage, further that they hurt their argument by not being accurate and truthful.
(By the way, I believe the same sex couple was just misdirection from the incredible weakness of their argument)

A quick review:
(I'm going to paraphrase for brevity)

"It's ugly"
Come on. Remember "form follows function" This design shape isn't as attractive as a sports car, but has a very low drag coefficient, so better milage. (has anyone noticed how clean the rear window is at speed in the rain?)

"Not enough room"
Give me a break. The point over the absurd amount of stuff they half-heartedly tried to pack into the car has already been made in this thread. It has more than enough room for most couples.

"Acceleration sucks"
Compared to what. Sports cars? Motorcycles? As noted earlier, it has more than enough acceleration to merge onto at a freeway at speed, and has adequate passing acceleration.

"Actual milage wasn't that good""
This was the worse, and was pretty much a prevarication from beginning to end. First, as noted many times in "Prius Chat," getting the most from your Prius requires practice. They put a neophyte at the wheel.
Second, they compared the Corolla (which has only 13.6 CF of luggage space, compared to Prius' 16 CF) EPA HWY mileage of 41MPG to the Prius' actual milage for this trip. They listed the MANUAL TRANSMISSION EPA rating, not the AUTO TRANSMISSION rating, which is 38MPG.
Actual milage vs. real world?
COME ON PEOPLE!
Try getting 41 MPG in a Corolla. My sister in law has one, (manual trans) and gets about 28-32 overall.

I was really annoyed with the way this was done. I wonder if they realize that this kind of crap casts doubt on other valid arguments they have made?

"Once you are caught telling a lie, it makes people wonder if you lied before, and will lie again"

Mac

 

BTW
About Nuclear Energy.
I am pretty much pro Nuke, but don't trust Corporate America to do it safely.
The US Navy has managed not to have an accident in 60 years.

Back to the show, they made an issue of the dangers of coal mining and death rates of coal miners.

So mining uranium is safe?

"Once you are caught telling a lie, it makes people wonder if you lied before, and will lie again"

Mac