Please tell me not to buy Civic

I'm with you on hatchbacks. People don't realize how much a hatchback can hold. You don't need an SUV to haul what a Prius or similar can haul, the stuff you generally haul day in and day out.

I, too, had a 79 Civic. A few of them, actually. I brought home a recliner in the back one day. A full sized recliner. No problem.

An SUV solves no problems, other than "everyone else has one, so I had better get one, too". People afraid to look at the facts and make their own decisions are the primary market for SUVs--and it's a big one, which tells you quite a bit about people.

A minivan is a better people and stuff hauler than an SUV, hands down. And a 5 door sedan is a much more efficient day to day solution that can also haul quite a bit of stuff. Where the sedan leaves off, the minivan takes over. At no point does the SUV do a better job of either of them.

But so many people, wanting not to stick out from their neighbors, buy an impractical SUV instead--because they don't have to explain it to their shallow neighbors. Better to have the same problems as everyone else, I guess, than not to have those problems but be seen as "different" by those same neighbors.

And hence the automaker's situation: people want SUVs because people want SUVs, and people don't want hatchbacks because people don't want hatchbacks. The automakers are going to build what sells, not what makes sense.

The Prius driver doesn't mind being apart from his neighbors.

But if Toyota quit selling the Prius and instead put a hybrid Corolla in its place, what would the Prius driver do? Would he buy that hybrid Corolla (sedan and all), or would he be mad that he couldn't make a statement of his own and instead go out and buy something else?

How much of Prius driving is the statement it makes--just like the SUV driving?

Mine is a company car. It was between the Prius and the Malibu, and I won't drive a GM car. Otherwise, it wasn't my choice. I'm not driving it to make a statement, I'm driving it because that's what's offered and because it saves me money to drive a company car (it would have saved me exactly the same amount if I'd chosen the Malibu, too--somewhere around $2K/year).

So I'm objective here. I have no skin in this game, no emotional attachment to the car, I didn't choose it because it was a hatchback, a hybrid, or anything else. And I'm curious: would current Prius drivers go out and choose a Corolla hybrid, or would they be mad that they couldn't make a statement by driving a car that's available only as a hybrid?

For many drivers, the SUV choice and the Prius choice all come from the same core need.

 

Hi Land Cruiser,

I think the big difference between the Prius and the HCH is the transmission concept.

The Prius has a blank-piece-of-paper, hybrid-centric design. The Prius tranmission is simply described as an electric torque converter. The HCH uses a mechancal CVT, and while much more durable than early CVT's (think Suburu Justy), it has the mean time between failure reportedly similar to a traditional automatic transmision. So, with the HCH you have the hybrid component reliability combined with what is essentially a traditional automatic transmission reliabilty. The two together I would expect would result in less reliability than a standard car.

The Prius on the other hand has a very reliable transmission. It has fewer mechanical components than a traditional automatic transmission, and uses and extra motor for the ratio variation. No clutches, bands or other torque switching devices as in a standard car automatic transmission. The motors are synchrounous hybrid induction/permanent magnet motors multi-phase motors, and do not have any brushes to wear. The Prius transmiision has demonstrated what one would expect from such a mechanically simple design, very high reliability. Combined with the battery and other other hybrid component reliability, and you end up something that can be expected to be on par with a standard car, but with the added advantage of low mechanical wear on brakes, and absense of starter and alternator repairs.

Allot of the handlinq quircks some Prius have can be dealt with. There are lots of threads on PC here regarding that. Special toe-in modified front end alighment, and addition of the BT Tech stiffening plate have corrected this for many many drivers.

Not sure what happened on your accelleration run. The Prius does respond well to a floor stomping from standing start. Almost like a different car when you do that. The specs have the Prius a second or so quicker than the HCH. Its not a V6. Its more like a 2.4 liter Camry in its accelleration from 0 to 60. Although from 15 to 50 mph, its somewhat better, in my opinion. The engine does not "come on cam" like standard cars, as its a Atkinson cycle engine. The battery/motor does make up for this at slower speeds, and the delay built into the engine as it comes on. The delay is there so that the engine does not need "enrichment". The advantage of this is guiltless accelleration.

The transmission has a wider ratio range than the typical 4 speed automatic . This allows the engine to be at a higher RPM (and power) when the car is at slower speeds. The Prius will spin a tire on your typical manhole cover during accelleration, which most automatic standard cars with the the same accelleration wont. Its very torquey at lower speeds. Except when you accellerate over said man-hole cover, its very smooth doing all this. Avoiding the gear changing delay, and having better low speed ratios it what allows the Prius with its 106 hp hybrid system to accellerate like a standard car with 150 hp.

 

we take the prius on a big road trip twice annually. about 1200 mi each way give or take a few, and we pack about 10 days worth of supplies.

we've got a small parrot that comes with us on these trips now, so we also have her travel cage, regular cage setup, and all her stuff.

it all fits with room to spare. and, when we go out to home depot there is never a second thought to how we are going to be able to take the 8x12 carpet remnant (or name your large item) home.

the prius has enough go behind it. just enough. not gratuitous by any means. but it does the job.

and i suppose in california they're all over anyway, but when we got ours i liked it because it was different. there are so many civics out there, they might as well be reproducing on their own.

whatever you choose, good luck

 

I looked at the HCH, too. For me, the utility of the hatchback design was the big plus for the Prius. The HCH did feel zippier, though. I don't think you are making too bad of a mistake no matter which one you choose, it really depends on your needs.

 

Don't buy the Civic. There, I told you what you wanted to hear.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 1 2007, 08:36 AM) [snapback]415914[/snapback]</div>

I was reluctant about hatchbacks before I got the Prius because I thought that would leave everything in my trunk exposed if I went shopping. I was totally clueless about the torneau cover. Now I love it. If i'm out shopping and need to make more than one stop I can just pull the cover to hide everything. And thanks to that hatchback I can load big and boxy things that would never fit when I had a trunk. I don't miss using string to tie down my trunk when I buy something and underestimate the size of the box.

Honda seems to be playing up the versatility of the hatchback design with the Fit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 1 2007, 05:24 AM) [snapback]415894[/snapback]</div>

I'm not comparing the Prius to an HCH. He was talking maintenance. These are maintenance issues the Prius doesn't have or has less of than a conventional car. Whether the HCH is comparable, I don't know. The issue was the Prius having MORE maintenence than either the HCH or a conventional car. It doesn't.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 1 2007, 08:36 AM) [snapback]415914[/snapback]</div>

You can't buy what's not availabe. So they can claim no one wants one if no one is buying one. No one is buying one because they aren't offering one.

I had a hatchback Pinto and Nissan. I switched to a Saturn for safety, economy and it was supposed to be cleaner. Hated the trunk. Now I'm back in a hatchback again. It could be Prius sales are good because of the hatchback. How many other cars out there have a hatchback?

"automakers say". Yeah, right. Take that with a pound of salt.

The Prius used to be available as a conventional car with a trunk. That was the Gen 1, 2000-2003. When they redesigned the Prius as a hatchback for 2004, that's when sales really took off. It wasn't all about the hatchback, but being a hatchback didn't hurt anything.

 

I tried them both, and bought a HCH. I think I would have liked the Prius, too, and I like hatchbacks (except for SUVs). We thought the Civic was a bit more comfortable, and I've driven Hondas for 25 years, so it was more familiar. That said, there are Priuses EVERYWHERE around here -- I see over a hundred each day on the way to work.

 

I, too, test drove a HCH before buying my Prius. I liked the feel of the HCH, but the Prius won! I don't know about you, but my Prius picks up real quick when entering the freeway. I love the hatchback! I was able able to fit a 46in boxed up plasma TV in back. I think the Prius is more roomy if you ask me. That's just my opinion.

 

I like the look of the HCH, but I bought the Prius and very happy with it.

1-More reliable transmission (HCH using Bell, go to HCH forums and read).

2-Prius with Timing chain, HCH with timing Bell.

3-Hatch back I used to hate it but now I love it (I can carry 10ft pipe with all doors close), Fold down seat when need carry trees etc... I have Camry but no VAN, truck...

Buy whatever you like... go for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Mar 31 2007, 11:28 PM) [snapback]415858[/snapback]</div>

OK, an I4 then. I realize there are technical differences, but for the lay-person it really doesn't matter much. My point remains the same.

 

It most certainly helps to know what the other option has (starter, alternator, etc.) before slamming the other option.

It sounded for all the world like you were talking about a non-hybrid Civic. But now we know that you don't know how the Civic is equipped. Funny thing--that ignorance doesn't stop you from slamming it.

Why? They have no incentive to do anything other than make products that people will buy. They have chosen--ALL the automakers in Detroit and Japan--not to sell hatchbacks, because "hatchbacks don't sell".

You sound like you're accusing them of forcing some sort of agenda down peoples' throats. Nothing could be further from the truth. The automakers want to MAKE MONEY. Period. If people weren't buying hatchbacks, the automakers stopped making hatchbacks.

If people WERE buying hatchbacks, those same automakers would have kept making hatchbacks to sell them.

If the Prius weren't a hatchback, but were still the unique-looking vehicle that it is (in order to separate it out from other, non-hybrid cars on the road), it would still sell as well as it does.

 

I'm not the one doing the slamming here. I listed info on the Prius to counter the "they're more expensive to maintain" slam of someone else.

As for the automakers, they also decided there was no market for EVs or hybrids. Now they're playing catch-up (after slamming the hybrids for "they'll never sell")

Heaven forbid I should accuse automakers of having an agenda of any sort.

 

And you did so in the context of saying that the Civic hybrid has things that the Prius doesn't, without knowing whether it does or not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 1 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]416216[/snapback]</div>

By all means, please provide me with a complete quote.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 1 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]416218[/snapback]</div>

My partner's vehicle is a Honda Civic, not hybrid though. I think it is a great little car with excellent gas mileage too. Very dependable and the thing just runs and runs, it is a 1995 with 126k on her.

I like both Honda and Toyota, although this is the first Toyota I ever owned, I have no doubts in my mind about the dependability of my Prius, because it is backed by Toyota, and that's good enough for me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 1 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]416218[/snapback]</div>

Your post earlier in this thread:

You're saying, pretty clearly, that the Prius has less maintenance than the HCH because the Prius doesn't have a starter. Your meaning is that the HCH does have a starter.

But the HCH has the motor at the flywheel or thereabouts that (1) adds power on demand, and (2) starts the engine after it's been stopped at a traffic light. Doesn't that double as the starter for the engine when you turn the key to the Start position? Or does the HCH have an extra, traditional (and completely unnecessary) starter?

You're saying, pretty clearly, that because of the regenerative braking, the Prius has less brake maintenance than the HCH. Your meaning is that the HCH doesn't have regenerative braking--but that's wrong. The HCH does in fact have regenerative braking.

The CVT on the Honda is different than the PSD on the Prius, but they're both transmissions. They're both mechanical gear devices.

So how does the Prius have less maintenance on those items than the HCH, given that the HCH also has a big battery and motor system that starts the car (not a normal starter) and has a mechanical transmission like the Prius and uses regenerative braking like the Prius?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 1 2007, 10:37 PM) [snapback]416269[/snapback]</div>

No, I'm not saying pretty clearly that the HCH has more maintenance than the HCH. That's you're a$$umption. I'm simply stating the the maintenance of the Prius is. So he or anyone else that cares to can go find out what the manintenance is of any other car and compare the two.

At no time do I say the HCH or any other car has a starter. I state the Prius does not.

At no time do I state that the HCH has no regenerative braking. At no time do I say the HCH has more brake maintenance than the Prius. I state the brake mainenance of the Prius. Nothing more. You've made a$$umptions again.

I won't debate the planetary gear of the Prius. Let someone more technical explain how it isn't really CVT, although that is how it's referred to. All I know is it's the smoothest "transmission" I've ever driven and I'll never go back to a manual or a regular automatic transmission again.

How does the Prius have less maintenance than the HCH? I have no idea since you're the one that keeps bringing that up. I never compared the two. I only stated the maintenance of the Prius.

Separate paragraphs.

I was starting a new thought. I was replying to LoveIt. And I stated this previously.

I did not SLAM the Civic. I asked three questions for clarification.

1. Was the poster considering a Prius and the regular Civic or the Civic Hybrid? If I had read the post more carefully I would have seen the hybrid. Someone else clarified that.

2. What is the trunk space like? I imagine this makes a difference between the regular civic and the hybrid if it's anything like the Camrys. The Camry Hybrid has no trunk space to speak of compared to the regular Camry. (There's your slam. You're welcome.)

3. What is the mileage of the two? I don't have the stats in front of me and wasn't willing to look them up. I'm not buying the car, he is. So he should know the mileage comparisons between the two.

Flat simply questions with no slams involved.

I then started a new paragraph with statements regarding Prius maintenance. No slams to other cars. The HCH was never mentioned after the three clarifying questions. Just flat statements about the Prius maintenance. Replying to posts previous to mine.

Stop making a$$umptions and go personally attack someone else.

 

Well, all I can say is that at the very least you managed to say wildly different things than what you meant to say.

It's plain to the average reader what you actually communicated.