1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Plug-in Owners Plug In More

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by El Dobro, Jun 8, 2013.

  1. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    1,242
    252
    0

    But you ARE creating a problem if you are parking a full day while not charging. This is after all access to a charging station, not a "parking" station. This is the problem my company has with all these PiP parking all day not using the charger. Or plugs in all day and not charging.

    The right way to go about is, you get your full charge, plug the J7772 plug into the other guys car. And leave so others can park and wait for their charge too.

    At my company, we know that if we pop out the J7772 door, that means we are waiting. We charge up and start for the other guy. Since it is free, it is not an issue.
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I always thought RV parks were the natural recharging stations for Plug-In and EVs. Is there something wrong with them?

    They usually have a 'store' you might wait in while getting a charge from the parking spot. Many of them have at least 25A and higher service. Did this approach never work out?

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I would partially disagree with you.....I think this could be remedied by having the charging station sense whether the spots are occupied or not (with uncharged cars), or whether someone is on their way with a 'reservation'.
    As long as the other spots are unoccupied, and no one is reserving, I don't see a problem with staying there all day. It would definitely inconvenience a lot of people to have to go all the way to the parking garage in the middle of a work day, unless it was at lunch.

    So, in my above example, lets say the LEAF started charging at 9:20am. The Volt, still uncharged, has every right to stay parked waiting for its share. The LEAF finishes by 12:20pm, and plugs the Volt back in. The Volt then stays there, charging. (And the whole process can repeat if another LEAF arrives for a charge-up at that moment, and agrees to plug the Volt back in no later than 3pm).
    Well, the Volt started charging at 12:20pm, and is done by 3pm. At that time, the sensors indicate other cars waiting or on their way. THAT should be when the Volt owner gets a text saying they need to scoot or face a penalty.

    It seems like the people at your company have a pretty good protocol there.....but if this is going to work for pay stations, there has to be seamless connectivity between smartphone, station and EV so that the right person gets billed when they are plugged in by someone else.
     
  4. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    On a side note, I believe EV's should get priority access over PHEVs, since it can mean the difference between them getting to their next destination on time (or at all), whereas the PHEVs have gasoline backup (or should....no sympathy for PHEV drivers driving with 'dry tank')

    That being said, the EV owner should only charge up with the miles they actually need, rather than a full top off. If they have 10 miles left and their next destination is 20 miles away, they should be able to take 30 miles (1 hour) worth of charge so that they leave with 40 miles range remaining - double the amount needed, which leaves a good buffer. No sympathy for someone topping off to 100 miles (3 hours) and thereby denying 2 hours of charge to others in such a case.
    Seems it would be fairly easy to have a penalty for this as well, if they drove only 20 miles before plugging in for several hours, then there was clearly no need for those last 2 hours - so, penalty.

    It does seem unfair that the PHEVs may find themselves getting unplugged all day long to top off EVs. They may end up using the ICE on the way home :(

    If we are going to be totally fair about it, the station should charge the EV the 'threshold price' of what it would cost the PHEV to use its ICE.

    E.g. - If I have a LEAF, and I unplug an uncharged Volt late in the afternoon, I must be willing to pay $.10/mile of charge I take. (That is about what it cost for the Volt's ICE $4premium/40 mpg).
    So my 30 miles of charge would be $3, and so on.

    In this way, the charging station can collect the $ amount that corresponds to whomever has the the highest marginal utility for it.
     
  5. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Totally agree with you, Bob. I bet you will see some savvy RV park owners get in on this game soon.
     
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,155
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Numerous Roadster and Model S drivers have done exactly that.
    I see two reasons RV parts may not be eager to install special charging hardware.
    First, cross country trips in <100 mile EVs is probably going to be very uncommon. Even if there were RV parks with J1772 chargers every 60 miles or so, is an EV driver willing to charge 3 hours for every hour and a half of driving (assuming 30 amp J1772)?
    Second, while an EV is not charging, the connection is dead weight (money wise).

    Where as with a NEMA 14-50 outlet, which is what almost all RV parks have, RVs can be using it, or Teslas, or any other EV/PHEV that makes adapters for a simple ne,a 14-50 outlet.
     
  7. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,933
    2,286
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base

    IMO, people are over thinking this. RV park owners aren't in the business of selling electricity. There isn't enough margin to justify the costs. They'd rather rent out the spot to a camper who will probably purchase stuff at their store than more a EVer to drive in, take up space, pay $1-$2, then leave (maybe buy a drink). If it is a lure to bring in normal paying customers, then it is a marketing cost. A typical EV owner isn't likely to want to drive out of their way to go to an EV park to charge.

    Let's see, what other businesses aren't out of the way...hmmm...gas stations. They are much more likely to be in a position to make money from this. And it is a stretch for them.

    Mike
     
  8. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,933
    2,286
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Sure this scenario can happen. But then who pays when the Volt is plugged back in? All the current systems charge the person who taps their RFID card and then plugs in, not the car. What if the Volt didn't want a full charge? Now you need some complex authorization...the Leaf owner has to be authorized to enable charging and the Volt owner has to OK it on their smart phone since the car associated with the RFID card doesn't match. Certain do-able, but too complex for most people. What if your Volt got replugged in but your phone was dead, had no signal or you were in a noisy place and just didn't hear it. Now what? Another Leaf arrives and you aren't charging...is it OK to unplug...after 5 minutes? after 30 minutes?

    Mike
     
  9. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I recently came a across an article that this is starting to happen, but I have to find the link
     
  10. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV

    Some great points.

    These issues will have to be ironed out. That is why, going forward in the future, I don't envision RFIDs as the standard.
    They may make sense now in the early days of EVs, but not when mass-market numbers start to take hold.....they simply don't have the flexibility to deal with complexity.

    If we don't get a better system, someone is going to lose:
    (1) EVSE suppliers will lose, because they will be forced to deploy a much larger # of 'dumb' stations with lower utilization rather than a smaller number of 'smart' stations with higher utilization, in order to avoid congestion
    or:
    (2) EV drivers will lose, because the existing system will lead to congestion & confusion, resulting in delayed or denied charges, and delayed or denied trips.

    Some sort of smartphone app that seamlessly integrates with charging station and EV would be needed. Google would be an ideal company to tackle this, they could integrate it with their Maps app, so that EV trips are plotted vs. remaining range, factoring in charging stations along the route, making reservations, etc.

    In the examples you mentioned of the Volt owner being out of cell phone range/not hearing it/being too busy, it shouldn't matter in a properly designed system.......once the owner specifies how much range (full, half, or whatever) they need, and by what time, that information is stored in the 'cloud', and any subsequent usurpers of the charging cable will know exactly how long they have to charge up their car and by what time to plug the Volt back in. No need to get a hold of the Volt owner to ask permission.

     
  11. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    557
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Personally, I believe standard nema 120V and 240V outlets provide all the functionality needed for the transition to EV. All this complexity introduced by metering and allocating is pure overhead and provides ZERO benefit to anyone, except the company manufacturing the charge station equipment. Consider that thousands of RV parking spots have been deemed safe to operate with just a nema 240V outlet. Also consider that the typical 2 hour charging session is about $0.50 worth of electricity at retail pricing, $0.20 at wholesale pricing.

    That said, primary charging should be at home and off-peak. Multi-family residential projects should be adding numerous accessible 120V outlets to their parking areas. Large employers should be adding 120V outlets to their parking facilities as well, enough so that there is NOT a need to designate EV only spots.
     
    markabele likes this.
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,530
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Explain 'should.' If it is an unrecognized profit center I have missed it too.
     
  13. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    557
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I take it you have never had the responsibility of recruiting and retaining more than 5000 employees. My experience is that employees contribute to profits in a for-profit enterprise.
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,530
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Silly hubris. To answer your question though, my experience is that HR are idiots and that the dept in general exists to exploit the workers and protect the company from regulatory violation.

    Google the company may indeed be different, and there may well be a few thousand highly sought after people in tech who love driving their EVs to work. Those people have their own parking space, and they can install an EVSE if they want.
     
  15. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    557
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    As you recognize, an EVSE still requires a source of electricity, hence the need to install 120V outlets in the parking facilities. EV owners can supply the adapters (EVSE) for their vehicle model.
     
  16. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,155
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Just as any other job benefit, spots to plug in will be considered by people.
    Not so long ago in Minnesota many businesses installed block heater plugs for employees to use.
    This was done as a benefit, nothing else.
    Personally, I like employer supplied donuts as well :-D
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  17. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV

    I agree with you that employers should be able to provide EV charging without too much hassle/expense.....they might even get tax breaks for doing so now, IIRC.
    Employer-provided EV spots would also be ideal for V2G deployment (dedicated customers), which means the local utility would be more than willing to help build them, at little to no expense to the employer. And, if there is some small expense that needs to be charged to the employee per use (and the company is cheap enough to do so), RFID would suffice, since the stations are closed to the general public - no complex sharing arrangements needed.

    That being said, do you still believe standard non-metered charging for the general public (i.e., open to anyone, at locations other than home or work) will suffice once we have 1 million EVs? 5 million? 10 million+?
     
  18. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,933
    2,286
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    And what is to keep non-employees from just driving up and using the spots and the power? With a ChargePoint (or similar) system the company issues cards that provides access to authorized drivers. The company also gets daily/monthly usage reports...which they can use for accounting and/or PR purposes.

    Mike
     
  19. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,933
    2,286
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I'm not sure how they lose. They get paid for each installed unit.



    In a couple of weeks I'll have had my PIP for a year. So far I've never encountered an EV space with a car in it, fully charged, but still using the only slot. (Except at work where we freely plug each other in, etc) I'm sure it will happen, though. Once we get out of this very early adopter stage things will be different.

    I see places like SJ airport which has two prime EV parking spots in short term parking. But this style isn't scalable. They need to mount the chargers on central pillars with cables long enough to reach 4 parking spots. Same infrastructure cost, but 4x the versatility and no new fancy system needed. To solve this problem we just need a few civil engineeers and architects to get EVs and think for 3 minutes on how to fix this.

    Mike
     
  20. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    557
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    most large employee lots have some security measures in place to restrict non-employee parking. any abuse is easily identified and remedied by methods already in place. the standard electrical meter used to provision the electricity to the parking lot can provide the bulk of the utilization information.

    if a non-employee walks into your large business and asks to use the toilet or get a drink of water from the water fountain you are probably not going to be concerned, even if they make a regular habit of it.