Plug-ins do they make sense?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 4 2006, 08:58 PM) [snapback]250063[/snapback]</div>

Actually, we have come quite a way in cleaning up the smog made by generating electricity...at least here in Southern California. When our company started monitoring the smog for those powerplants, we were seeing 15-20 ppm NOx. These days we see 1.5 ppm for the same amount of electricity generated. What we need to do is get off of oil and coal powered electricity production elsewhere...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finally_got_one @ May 5 2006, 11:43 AM) [snapback]250373[/snapback]</div>

Yes, CA has done pretty well. We do still import electricity that is made dirty ELSEWHERE though, unfortunately. The goal is to clean the nation's grid (if not the world's). I saw a great bumpersticker a while back that stated, "We all live downwind."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]250253[/snapback]</div>

You've got me interested now How did you go about finding a company that could perform the installation? Or better yet, make recommendations on what to install?

 

I thought that only penny machines made sense. B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 03:31 PM) [snapback]250406[/snapback]</div>

Rebate of $5k/kW AND no state tax. Wow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]250253[/snapback]</div>

That's a mega system!

We have a PV system too. In Maine it just doesn't make economic sense to grid tie though. They don't pay squat for the excess juice. Certainly not enough for me to install the phase equipment and additional panels. So we charge the batteries until they're full, then the panels just sit in the sun. When we run the A/C CMP (Central Maine Power) runs them for us. That's way cheaper than the PV system needed to run the A/C when we do need it. Certainly cheaper than buying fossil fuel for the generator too. If I didn't have to pay for a line to the shop I'd drop the tie to CMP, but since I pay for one line, the other is free. It makes sense to keep it. We have a bettery system due to the many outages we have experienced in the past. In CMPs defense, they've gotten better at reducing outages. It's kinda nice though to turn an outside light on when the neighbors don't have power.

The impetus for our system was a 5 day outage a few years back. We got an ice storm that coated everything with 4" of ice. Some folks were w/o power for weeks. We decided then and there to do what we needed to do to live independent of the utility for up to a month or more.

4 Kyocera 125w panels (soon to be 8 as soon as I get to installing them)
2 1000ah batteries in series (24v)
2 Trace DR 1500w inverters slaved for 120/240v
1 SolarBoost 6024 controller
8k (continuous) generator for backup and still tied to the grid when we want to be. We have a 3k diesel Lister generator, but it isn't hooked up yet.

For us an EV makes sense. We already have excess PV power that's been paid for. Except it's Maine. Winter, snow, cold. Love the Prius, don't know anything about a purely EV in our conditions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Brian K @ May 5 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]250500[/snapback]</div>

Nothing but love, baby! An EV's performance is affected about as much as any automobile in the cold. As long as you use advanced batteries (NiMH or Li-ION) and stay away from lead-acid, you'll do very well. Here in CA, I expend a bit of energy just keeping the battery cool. You won't have that problem!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 5 2006, 07:04 AM) [snapback]249906[/snapback]</div>

Toyota claims the tank-to-wheel efficiency of Prius is 37% and the well-to-wheel efficiency is 32%.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/output.html

I believe the NiMH charge-discharge efficiency is about 90% at best.
Do you have any number about well-to-wheel of EV?

Ken@Japan

 

While plug-in hybrids are a logical goal, we need some added improvement in battery technology. The Prius presently has a battery that weighs about 100 pounds and can run the car in EV mode for no more than 2 miles. If your commute is 20 miles, you're going to need 1000 pounds of batteries, which is alot of weight to be hauling around. If your destination doesn't have recharging capabilties, then you'll need another 1000 pounds of batteries to get back home. When we get the technology and economics together to make EV cars practical, then a plug-in hybrid will make a lot more sense.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(8AA @ May 6 2006, 08:48 AM) [snapback]250705[/snapback]</div>

The prius doesn't use the full capacity of its battery, though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 4 2006, 06:00 PM) [snapback]249904[/snapback]</div>

kirbinster~

You do know your just talking to a wall here in this thread......

The EV'ers are already brainwashed into their way of thinking, Yes I to have explored the realm of EV the pros & cons of the issue.

Pros: your saving the enviroment

Cons: limited range 40-80 miles between plugins, charging down time & just not very cost effective.

However they are not looking at it from a cost issue, but more of a enviromental issue & the prestige it brings them being an EV owner, kinda like the way we feel about our Prius but more intence.

I have pointed out in other threads the costs of electricty & the fact that they are still using fossil fuels which still causes pollution. Again they just overlook that issue with excuses, facts and figures they have come up with to justify thier cause. never mind the fact your still paying for fuel that comes from fossil fuels & oil and do their share polluting themselves to produce electricty.

Have you ever noticed how 90% of the EV vehicles still look like K.I.T. kars? Excluding other 10%, the ranger with a arange of 50 mi. the now extinct EV-1 & the EV rav4. If these where cost effective they would still be making these wouldnt they? Look into the saftey ratings of these other homemade EV cars..
It kills me to think, hey I've got that extra 40k growning on my money tree I think i'll buy a new scion & and have it converted over to full EV! (doesn't that sound crazy)? Kinda like having a EV hobbiest, I think I would rather buy the 2007 Tahoe with the variable on demand cylinder control or another hybrid.

I would however like to see a EV vehicle that would be recharged with regeneritive braking & solar and never need to be plugged in it would be self-sustained (that would be awsome). but they would never make such a vehicle because as with most people greed would come into play and the vehicle would cost an arm /leg up front, so you see im not totally against EV, just the plugging in part as I would still be paying for my fuel with every utility price hike...

Most of us look at trying to save money by buying a Hybrid, yes a little more up front cost but my 1st year of ownership saved me 2700 dollars, that was almost the cost that was what the dealers had marked up on them do to supply & demand ..

I think the manufacturers that produce hybrids should make it an option to have the plug in capability. Because frankly there are plenty of people that do not want to plug into an outlet everynight.


Want to save the enviroment? buy a horse & buggy, hey there's an idea intragate solar panels into the buggy to power the lights..

I would think the savings for pluging in would be non-existent as you are still paying for gas & now your having to pay for your added electricty usage too.... where as now you just have to pay for the gas..

(Let the excuses & reasoning begin)!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 6 2006, 10:47 AM) [snapback]250720[/snapback]</div>

Even if the plug-in were standard (which they wouldn't be, I'm sure) - you wouldn't have to plug it in - you can still drive it just like you do now, and use gas as your only fuel. I don't understand why this idea upsets you so much.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(8AA @ May 6 2006, 06:48 AM) [snapback]250705[/snapback]</div>

Actually they do have a battery about 1.5x bigger that will get you 50-60 miles. However, it will cost around $12-$10k atm. EDrive is trying to turn Prius plug-in conversions into a business model for early adopters. If gas gets up to $5-$6 a gal I am going to do it but atm it is too costly for me.

 

The Prius efficiency is higher than a traditional ICE due to the use of the electric motor, of course. But a 32% Well-to-wheel efficiency is all but impossible. Sounds great, but we still don't know all that they are counting. It is impossible to only lose 5% of your efficiency with all the frictional losses of making and distributing gasoline.

I do, yes. But they are all but meaningless since electricity can be produced from so many sources. What is the efficiency of turning falling water into electricity? Or sunlight? And why would we care if that process is inefficient? If I make my power from the sun, and then lose 10% in charger/discharge of the batteries, and then put 90% of that to the pavement, have I done better or worse than a gasoline car at 15% efficiency? Or the Prius at a questionable 32%?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(8AA @ May 6 2006, 05:48 AM) [snapback]250705[/snapback]</div>

You're making some flawed assumptions here. The Prius was never meant to drive on battery power alone, and therefore is not very good at it! Just adding battery is not the answer to extending range. The vehicle needs to be designed as a battery car to make it function correctly.

My Rav4EV has less than 1000 pounds of batteries, and in this un-aerodynamic car, I can drive 120 miles on these batteries. WAY different than 20 miles, yes? And today we'd use Li-Ion batteries in a production EV. Yes, betteries could improve, but they sure don't need to in order to have effective EVs. I'm driving proof that's 10-year-old technology.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 6 2006, 07:47 AM) [snapback]250720[/snapback]</div>

You might have explored them, but it is obvious that you still haven't a clue what the pros and cons really are. Does what you read carry more weight than what I experience on a daily basis? Do all the articles telling us what idiots we are to drive the Prius make it so? Have you been brainwashed into thinking the Prius is anything more than an expensive Corolla?

Ah. Thanks for the definitive list of EV pros. Nobody wants to be bothered with increased performance, avoiding tuneups and oil changes, the convenience of home refueling, quiet operation, instant starting in any weather, a stronger domestic economy, reduced military conflict and increased national security. Those are all just excuses.

I've now owned three EVs, and only one - the Ford Pickup - fell into your range envelope. All others have been higher. And every one of these vehicles was designed more than 10 years ago, with 10-year-old technology and battery chemistry. Today we have 300-mile range vehicles with 0-60 times in the 3-second range. We have also had quick charging for about 15 years. But you knew all this because of your exhuastive research, I assume. What you might call "charging downtime" I call parking. Show me the car that drives more than it is parked.

Yet pointing it out doesn't make it so. I use no fossil fuels to make my electricity. And if I were still charging from the grid, I'd be using at least *domestic* fossil fuels (coal). And my cost per "gallon of gas equivalent" would be just under $1. Gas is $3+, the cost of electricity is $1-. Where did we lose you?

Or, more accurately, we (I?) actually have experience and facts while you seem to have some wild assumptions and misinformation. So, in your wording, my experience and facts - my realties - are my excuses. Have you ever driven or owned or charged or bought "fuel" for an EV? What makes you an expert on them again? You've read some things, and you have some "feelings?"

It is easy not to mind it when it isn't true. Electricity can come from MANY sources. All of them domestic. Gasoline on the other hand has no options. Of course everything pollutes to some extent. But I can say with some confidence that my EVs have not done "their share" of polluting. Are you aware that your gasoline car uses as much electricity as my electric car? Is my electricity dirty while yours is clean? Ah... but look! After I use my electricity, I don't then go on to burn any gasoline.

Have I noticed something that conflicts with reality? Who cares what they look like anyway? Does that make them more polluting or less effective? Have you seen the Prius!? The only production EV that looked much different from any other production gasoline car was the EV1. ALL others were based on gasoline cars. Nissal Altra, Ford Ranger, Chevy S10, Rav4. The Honda reused most of their parts to make a dorky, but standard looking EV+. So I guess my answer is no, since it isn't true. The Prius looks FAR more different than most production EVs. So what's the big point?

These three cars comprise 10% of the EV market in your mind? The lead Ranger got about 50 miles. The NiMH has a 90 mile range.

OK, you just can't be serious! You "would think" this? The cheaper electricity offsets the more expensive gasoline, and you just see it as an additive thing? If you're happy in you misinformation, then I shouldn't be raining on your parade.

Your bait worked on me, certainly. And I can only assume that this whole thread was just that - baiting. I'm a sucker for it, so you must be very happy indeed. I will challenge you to show me one "excuse" that I've made that cannot be backed up with fact and logic. But that wasn't the point here, was it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 6 2006, 12:46 PM) [snapback]250751[/snapback]</div>

No Sir, That wasn't the point. but you did it well

Ahh, now I remember you :blink: from GH..
I brought some information from the thread I started there and posted here.

The EV sites:
AC-Propulsion T-Zero:
http://www.evchargernews.com/video/TZero_small.mpeg

Venturi:
http://www.evuk.co.uk/electric_car_PAL001.wmv

Wrightspeed X1:
http://pluginamerica.com/media/Wrightspeed.wmv

Electric Vehicle Performance
& Battery Cost Comparison
Educating the public one
step at a time....

The reader will find performance comparisons between electric vehicles made by Ford, Chrysler, General Motors, Honda, Toyota and Electric Fuel Propulsion Corporation (EFP) [which has licensed its technology to Electric Auto Corporation (EAC) in 1994].
These comparisons are based on tests by the U.S. Department of Energy and General Motors.

In 1969, the best performing electric vehicle on the road was the MARS II Electric Car produced by EFP, equipped with Lead Cobalt Batteries, which had a maximum driving range of 146.8 miles on a charge.
In 1997, the best performing electric vehicle on the road was the EV-1 Electric Car produced by General Motors, equipped with Lead Acid Batteries, which had a maximum driving range of 90.5 miles on a charge (EFP and EAC were not producing electric vehicles at that time).

It should be noted that Honda and Toyota used Nickel Metal Hydride Batteries (NiMH) which cost was estimated at $450 per kilowatt hour (Note 1) as compared to $67 per kilowatt hour for the Lead Cobalt Battery (6.7 times as much). Nickel is ten to fifteen times as costly as lead.

Ford, Chrysler and General Motors are now beginning to install NiMH Batteries in the vehicles (which, until recently, have been equipped with Lead Acid Batteries). This will increase the range of those vehicles, but at a high cost penalty due to the high cost of the NiMH batteries. Those companies will absorb the loss as part of their commitment to the State of California to bring a certain number of EV's to the market before Year 2003.

The new constant speed ranges (under the U. S. Department of Energy Test Program in Phoenix, Arizona) for EV's made by Ford, Chrysler and General Motors, with estimated cost of Nickel Metal Hydride Batteries, are as follows: (assuming 4 miles per kilowatt hour)



Ford Ranger -- 50 miles with NiMH Batteries28.75 kWh x $450/kWh = $12,937)


Chrysler EPIC -- 90 miles with NiMH Batteries22.5 kWh x $450/kWh = $10,125)

GM S-10 -- 130.6 miles with NiMH Batteries32.65 kWh x $450/kWh = $14,692)


THE COST OF LEAD COBALT BATTERIES FOR THE ABOVE VEHICLES$1,962 for Ranger, $1,508 for EPIC, $2,188 for S-10.


****************************************
EV Pros & Cons
Like anything in life, things can have both its advantages as well as its disadvantages.

The silence of an EV
The first thing that a person will notice as soon as they drive an EV for the very first time is that it is considerately quiet. You can roll up the windows and the noise of everyday life seems to disappear, allowing you to enhance your listening pleasure for music, conversations on your car phone, or just giving you the peace to think freely while driving. The drawback to this is that a lot of drivers depend upon noise in order to control their driving. You know that if you hear the acceleration of a motor rapidly coming towards you, you can react in time to move away. This also applies to pedestrians and can help to keep them out of danger. Engineers and manufacturers are speculating when and whether they should install some kind of device that will produce a noise to warn others when an EV is approaching.

The features of an EV
Like gasoline powered vehicles, most EVs come with an AM/FM stereo and cassette deck, air conditioning (A/C), anti-lock brakes, dual side air bags, and options like tinted windows, cup holders, CD players, car alarms, etc. One disadvantage to an EV however, is that the air conditioning can decrease the vehicle's range as much as 20%. The other electronic devices, however, usually constitute no major change in the vehicle's range.

The performance of an EV
EVs drive very similarly to that of gasoline powered vehicles. The car is a well-balanced structure; the batteries are in the middle of the vehicle, giving the driver great handling ability. Most EVs can perform up to par with gas-powered vehicles, although they cannot achieve the same top speeds. Many EVs can beat gas-powered cars "off the line" because an electric motor produces full torque instantaneously whereas an ICE must build up torque.

The reliability of an EV
Many EVs have been customized with special features such as resealable tires, programmable charging systems, and regenerative breaking. In addition, they have proven to be low maintenance and fairly cost efficient vehicles, with batteries that can last up to four years or 40,000 miles (depending upon the type of batteries being used). Most car companies lease their EVs however, so the consumer never has to cover the cost of replacing the battery pack.

The safety and the concern of an EV
For safety features, circuit breakers and fusible links are installed to make explosions, fires, and electrocution a highly unlikely experience. In car accidents, EVs are considered to withstand impact a lot better than most gasoline-powered vehicles, as the fluid filled batteries help to absorb most of the impact. However, if the sealed lead-acid batteries should some how rupture and a person comes in contact with the fluid, the acid can cause serious harm unless thoroughly cleansed with water very rapidly.

It just seems that EV is a hobbie, that people & manufacturers play/ expieriment with a while then put it away until next time.. (maybe one day they will come up with an EV that will perform like a hybrid) but until then we should reap the benefits of our present hybrid technology & hypermileing or pulse/glide..

I would guess in the end, If you live close to work and the EV works for you? Enjoy it!!

Im not totally against Pure EVs I would just like one that would be self sufficent... battery/solar

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 6 2006, 11:21 AM) [snapback]250771[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, I'm good that way.

We have been driving an EV as our main vehicle for over five yeas and 70k miles now. To my family, these vehicles are superior for most (though certainly not all) of our driving tasks. EVs are not "experiments" or expensive toys for us. To my family, our EV is simply "the car." Our current EV is driven 7 days/week for about 12k miles/year. We use it for all or our commuting, and most weekend trips. Our Prius is driven about once per week on average, and I expect to see about 3k miles on it per year (that's the number we put out our last gas car).

Our EV commutes to work 5 days/week. The round-trip is 40 miles which is longer than the national average. The 100+ mile range won't work for everybody - only about 90% of US commuters. Add an outlet at the office, and you have 200+ mile range. Anybody who commutes longer than that will need a modern EV, or a real life.... or both.

And yet you still haven't realize that is exactly what I'm driving, right? The solar comes from the roof of my garage - but there's no other external power needed. How about if we put the same limits on your hybrid? I'd like to see one that doesn't need to have gasoline added to it. I'd LOVE to see you grow gasoline on the roof.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 6 2006, 04:25 PM) [snapback]250810[/snapback]</div>

Have you added an outlet at the office?

I'd like to see one that doesn't need to have gasoline added to it. (Then it would be an EV & not a hybrid).

I'd LOVE to see you grow gasoline on the roof. :blink: LoL too funny .. <_< :lol:

I do not think incorperating solar panels into a EV so that you wouldnt need to "plug in" unless it was an emergency... and the car becoming self sufficent (meaning it self -charges) would be concidered limiting the vehicle (unless you would have to Plug in every night this would be limiting the vehicle).... It would be just the opposit it would mean you could drive from Ca. to NY. and not have to stop for fuel other than sleep, food and potty breaks......

the present hybrids are still limited due to needing gasoline ( now if the prius would rejuvenate its power with built into the roof solar panels, this vehicle too would be limitless).

I am not attacking or trying to offend you (just the concept of plugging into a wall) but since you own one I guess you would feel that way.. So I take it from what youve typed you have solar panels on your roof to charge your rav4... or do you also power your house and only use if any power from the traditional power company grid?.

Where most of us would be having the 120a to 220a power outlet installed and we would be pulling from our power companys grid, and paying the extra cost if any on our power bills..

And again you have found a commuter vehicle that works for you & your family thats great..
(but do you have to work around the limitations of your EV, example you commute to work ect ect. but then you need to go to a place thats just out side the limits of the car, so would you have to drive back home and get the other car to finnish your errand)?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 6 2006, 05:27 PM) [snapback]250840[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 6 2006, 05:27 PM) [snapback]250840[/snapback]</div>