Plug-ins do they make sense?

Double Post?

The idea of having to plug in as an option is ok with me....
For local cummutes the Pure EV is a fine way to go..
For long distance trips time to drive a Hybrid.. (then an EV doesnt make sence)..
Unless you pull it behind a motor home...

Like the 80's CitiCar/commutacar:


I remember seeing these at old car shows :lol:

More of a home made look: EB

 

My friend Chelsea had this short response letter published in the LA times recently.
-----------------------------

May 6, 2006

Re "From 0 to 60 in 40 watts," editorial, April 29

Finally, plug-in hybrid technology is getting the attention it deserves. As a former GM employee on the EV1 electric vehicle program, we proved that the best way to get people to use less oil is to give them the opportunity to use none — without compromise in performance, safety and convenience. The public embraced that concept more easily than the automakers, and we were collectively gutted when GM abandoned its EV programs.

It has been difficult to get the large automakers to embrace plug-in hybrids because of an intangible conflict: To produce and market a car that is clean and quiet, you inherently imply that your core products —larger cars, trucks and sport utility vehicles — are none of those things.

Many automakers are learning that in order to succeed, they must build vehicles that people want to buy. What that means for the public is that there is no better time to ask for what we want. Until we do refuse to settle for less, plug-in hybrids will remain "the technology of the future."

CHELSEA SEXTON
Executive Director, Plug In America

 

I actually think Priusguy04 has some good points about the Cons of Evs. (sorry Darell)

Ok here's a con I came up with on the Evs: (well actually now I have come up with several)

Let's say you buy an Ev vehicle. You love it but you do alot of moving with your job. Then your going to be faced with having to have the car shipped everytime you move. So you would be looking at around $700-$1,500 to get your EV moved. (especially if you move cross country)

I guess that's why I think a PlugIn version of the Prius would be better than an EV. That way you can use batteries as much as possible BUT you can also then use the same vehicle for long distance traveling.

So what do you have to say about this Darell? I know everyone doesn't move but some do with their jobs. Those that do should look at this issue.

If you do any sort of traveling then you would always have to have a 2nd vehicle if you went with an EV. What about the people who ONLY want one vehicle? (For insurance purposes, limited space, etc)

They would also have the expense of having someone install a 220v electrical outlet to plug in with. (if they can't do it themselves)

What about the people who buy an EV now and something goes wrong with it. Since they are no longer being manufactured who is going to fix it if you don't have the knowledge to fix it yourself?

Let's say you go beyond your range and run out of battery power? How do you get home? Your gonna have to get it towed home right? With a gas vehicle you would just need to have someone pick you up drive to a gas station with a gas can and get you some more gas to get your car home.

Let's say you have a bad storm and your electricty goes out and so your vehicle didn't get charged up overnight. How do you get to work? (Oh I need my 2nd vehicle right?) Remember you said you even got your Prius for the long distance traveling that you do each year. (About 3,000 miles you said. Not much but mileage you couln't do with your Rav4)

I have had a dealer who sells EVs say they don't reccomend them for cold climates. (Now this was a dealer who had one available to sell to me)

At this point ONLY a used EV can be bought. So your taking a chance on what you get. How would you know the previous owner took care of the vehicle especially the batteries. After buying my first new car I like being the 1st owner of a vehicle.

Darrel I hope you don't take offense to my questions/comments? I'm just trying to find out about these issues. I hope you will address them for me.

 

I don't know what the hell is going on! My quotes don't work worth a damn, and that's going to make it hard to read. Don't know what to do about it! I've tried everything, and nothing works (help!) You'll just have to figure out the quotes.

No apology needed. You can think whatever the heck you want. I had trouble finding more than... well, about one good point that he made against EVs. My responses to his posts made no sense? That was a lot of wasted effot then. I can come up with tons of negatives about EVs. Almost as easy as coming up with negatives about gas cars. But what's the point? There is not, and never will be, one perfect type of car or motive technology. Do we have a perfect car today? Is it the Prius? Can it do everything better than an EV? No. And neither can an EV do everything better than a Prius. So you choose the right car for your situation, and get on with your life. Wait... what's that? You can't choose an EV? Gosh, that sucks. How will the public ever know if they're viable vehicles? For me it all comes down to this: I own both a gas car and an EV. We drive the EV seven days a week, and we drive the Prius about once/week at most. We CHOOSE the EV because for us, it is the most practical car to use. We have the Prius here to pick up the loose ends, which is nice. Mostly we have the second car for when the two of us drivers both need to go somewhere in opposite directions. But it is also here for when we need to go long distances. There are many EV drivers who own the EV as their only car. They make it work. Hell, I know people who survive with NO car, so an EV, with all the real and perceived limits, would be a liberating experience, wouldn't you think? I even know people who don't own a bicycle! It is all in the perspective.

I'm not sure that I'll have the stamina to reply to each one of these points. But maybe after a few, you'll get the thread of my thinking. OK... So EVs are bad because when you move you'll have to ship it. Here are my responses off the top of my head:
1. You are again thinking about YESTERDAY'S technology. My push is to have modern, longer-range vehicles available. The EVs on the road today are little more than prototypes. Think of them as the Model T of the gasoline vehilces. A modern EV would have better range, and quicker charge times. So yes, with yesterday's technology, you may have to ship your EV if you move. You also have to ship all your crap, right? You can't drive you refridgerator or washing machine. Can't drive your bed or your dresser. Yes, you will likely have to pay somebody to move some of your posessions. That's just part of the drag of moving. If you can't afford it, you don't move. Or you sell what you can't take. And how about... IN the meantime, you might have saved $1000 is gasoline since your last move, so you're out nothing. If you "love" the EV, you'd make it work, I'd think.
2. You have multiple cars. More cars than drivers in your family. Let's say you and your husband have three gas cars between the two of you when you flit all about the country. You could each drive one... but the third one has to be shipped. OR you fly back and drive it. Man that sucks. Does it mean gas cars have this big negative against them? No of course not - it is just part of your situation, and you deal with it.
3. The last time I moved, I shipped one of our two gas cars for convenience. It rode along with the rest of our posessions. Honestly, I just don't get this one. Your electric car is one of your posessions. Like your Moped. Will you be riding your moped across the country when you move? Sure it'll be cheaper to ship than a car, but it still needs to be shipped. And does that fact alone mean that it isn't as "good" as your car? NO... just different.
My push is not to force anybody to drive an EV. My push is to have them available for those who want them. I suppose if you move across the country every couple of weeks, my might not want to buy an EV. If an EV is not the perfect car for somebody, I don't really consider that a big detraction to the technology. Not everybody wants a motorcycle, or a two-seater sports car, or a full-size SUV, or a motor home. But they're all available for those who want to buy them. New EVs on the other hand, are available to NOBODY. And that just plain sucks.

Not if you had a long-range EV, or quick recharging stations all over the place. For now, I fully agree that a REAL hybrid (meaning dual-fuel capable) is the answer for long-range travel. Liquid, high-density fuel is VERY hard to beat for long distance. No question. And one huge point to remember is that most US families today own at LEAST two vehicles. And one of those vehicles is used exclusively for commuting. That's the one I would like to see replaced - the one that drives 20-50 miles every day. Not the one that drives across the country every few weeks.

Well, they should buy the vehicle that is right for them. I don't hear anybody forcing EVs on the world. I just want them available to those who CAN use them. EVs won't work for everybody. Only about 90% of the population for 90% of their driving. For those who can't use them, they obviously are better off with a vehicle that fits their needs. No surprise here. How many times should I say it? EVs are not perfect vehilces for every driver nor for every task.

This goes back to the "ancient EV" thinking again. At this point, buying a used EV is as risky as buying any other "orphaned" car. But that says nothing about the viability of the technology as a transportation solution. maybe we're having two different discussions here? Buying todays used EVs is not a risk-free proposition. Buying a new, off-the-lot EV with a full warranty would have no more risk than buying a gasoline car today. In fact it would have far LESS risk, as there really are fewer things to go wrong with an EV. That's my push - not to have everybody go out and try to buy one of the few thousand used EVs on the road today. That makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. We need them available for everybody, and we need them supported by the car makers.

This is an amazingly common concern. Here we are with 5.5 years and 70k miles of EV driving under our belts (my wife and myself). We actually have run out of gas in the gas car in that time, but have not run out of battery power in the EV. At least not to the point where we couldn't still get home unassisted (more on this later) Ask any EV driver that you know how often he's been stranded. In an EV you know WAY more about your range/capacity than in a gas car. I'll tell you right now that a MUCH higher percentage of Prius drivers are running out of gas than EV drivers who run out of battery. So, avoiding the problem it is much easier, and I think you'll agree, much safer. But it can still happen, of course. You can self-rescue to a certain extent in an EV. When the batteries rest, you can use them again. In this way, you can drive another 10 miles even after you have run it "dry" the first time. NO way of doing that in a gas car. And letting it rest and driving on is WAY easier and safer than calling a friend with a gas can to come rescue you. What happens if you run out of gas in the Nevada desert where gas stations can be over 300 miles apart? You call a tow truck. Same thing you'd do if something important fell off your car, or it broke down. Shit happens, and you call a tow truck. Gasoline cars are far more prone to break down than an EV... but do you live in constant fear of having to call for a tow every time you drive your gas car somewhere?

Same thing you do when you go to start your gas car in the morning, and it won't run. You make other plans. You get a ride, borrow a car, whatever. You deal with it. What happens if you forget to fill up your gas car the night before and run out of gas half way to work? You deal with it. An average (ancient) EV has enough range for THREE average round-trip commutes, so even if you don't charge one night, or only get a partial charge, the chances are that you'll be fine. And by the way as an aside that you may not think of) you also can't put gasoline in your car during a power outage.

Right. We've always had two cars, and it works out great for us to have one EV and one hybrid. If the hybrid were to be pluggable, we'd burn about half the gas per year as we do now. And if it were a 200-mile EV, we'd burn about 1/10th the gas... in a car that we rent or borrow the few times we'd need to go beyond our range each year.

There are EVs and there are EVs. Lead-acid doesn't do well in the cold. I don't recommend gas cars in the cold either... unless you take special measures like block heaters etc. Use a battery heater, and you won't have problems with lead acid. Use modern chemistry batteries and you won't have problems either. Oh... and do you REALLY believe what car dealers tell you? Mine told me that the B position was for "boost."

Back again to the current used market of EVs. And again I'm not sure that we're having the same conversation. I am pushing to have NEW EVs available to the masses, and you are concerned about the few used ones on the market. There is nothing magical about a used EV. It just like buying a used gas car. I may not have been taken car of, and you're stuck with crap. I like buying new cars as well, for the same reasons. Doesn't mater what the motive technology is.

Reall, I don't take offense. I'll admit to bein a bit confused, and realizing that we are having two different discussions here though. You seem interested in getting a safe/reliable/good EV for you and your current situation RIGHT NOW. And my interest is in seeing new, supported vehicles offered to everybody who wants one. Those are different goals, and there are VERY different answers to the questions at hand. And of course different pros and cons.

But this thread is about plug-in hybrids, and if they are worth it. And to that, I obviously say, "Duh! Yes."

Just heard from poor benighted... he got water in his gas tank. There's yet another something that you never have to worry about with an EV! You can't get "bad" electricity that ruins your engine.

Wow. What a marathon.

 

Oh... and I forgot. Here's your other solution for a one-EV household. Was just reminded by another thread that brought up the "hybrid trailer."
http://www.darelldd.com/ev/rav_longranger.htm

You use the EV alone for 90% of your trips. You hook up the trailer for the long trips (and then leave it at your destination while you do your local driving, then hook it back up for the trip home).

This particular one has an awesome steering mechanism. You back up like you have no trailer, and the trailer wheels turn in advance of the reversing vehicle. Anyway - lots of solutions that only burn gas when we really "need" to.

 

Darell, Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I know you are wanting the auto companies to come out with new Evs but their not doing that now. So my questions were based on someone wanting to buy one that is already out there. I'm curious about one question you didn't answer:

They would also have the expense of having someone install a 220v electrical outlet to plug in with. (if they can't do it themselves)

What would be the approx cost to have a 220v outlet installed?

I have ONE comment to mention about moving. If I were to move I would be renting moving trucks to move with. If I still had my moped then I could easily put the moped inside the moving van. I couldn't do that with an EV vehicle. But I guess maybe I could pull the EV behind the moving truck. Or maybe I will just sell everything I can't fit in my gas car and forget about the moving trucks altogether LOL

It sure would be nice if there were stations all over were you could plug in. Wouldn't that be the answer to help someone at least get their vehicle cross country on their own?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 18 2006, 02:03 AM) [snapback]257389[/snapback]</div>

Oh that's cool! Do you have one of those? So this is a solution to get you cross country if you need to?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tracysbeans @ May 18 2006, 07:15 AM) [snapback]257462[/snapback]</div>

I see. The problem with this for me is that everybody has their own special circumstances, and trying to speak to each individual about their situation is difficult indeed. And it doesn't put any MORE EVs on the road. I am thrilled that you're interested... I just have limited time/resources. I'll tell you honestly that it does frustrate me to hear the implications that, "EVs are no good because they won't work for MY specific situation." I know you aren't saying that, but I do hear it quite often, and this is skating right on the edge. My push is for the needs of the general population, not for every single individual driver. I spend WAY too much time defending the later, when what really maters is the former.

I installed my own (two for EV charging, one for my welder and plasma cutter) for a total cost of materials of $50. The cost to have an electrician do it could cost several hundred, depending on the length of the run). The same outlet that you would plug an electric dryer into would charge your 220V EV. Most homes around here already have those anyway. If you do have to put in an extra circuit, it really is no big deal (circuit breaker, four wires, conduit, and outlet), and you are paying for the convenience of home refueling. People easily pay $2000 for the convenience of built-in GPS (not to mention the cost of moving anyway!), so a few hundred $ for adding a charging circuit seems trivial. Any modern EV would also likely allow 110V charging, though much slower than 220V. For an overnight charge, the speed really doesn't matter. The car is always parked WAY more than it is driven. So once again... we're talking about the inconvenience of the ancient EVs, vs what we SHOULD have on the road today if we weren't so focussed on how bad the original cars sucked.

Yeah... again, this is your situation. And like you say, you could tow the EV. I fully agree that in your hypothetical constantly-moving situation, that a plug-in hybrid would be a good fit. In fact, I agree that a plug-in hybrid would be a good fit for a HUGE section of the population.

Here in CA where we just barely got started, we have about 1,200 public charging stations in the state. Imagine if the cars were still being produced. Business owners have good incentive to install chargers in their lots - it attracts people to come and charge on 50c of electricity while the owner can be lured into the business to spend money. If we had EVs, we WOULD have chargers all over the place... just like we have gasoline stations today. When the first gas cars were sold in the US, there were no gas stations. You filled up your jerry cans and went as far as you could on the fuel you had with you. Very soon, the need for fueling stations because obvious, and here we are today.

The way I envision it is that there would be tons of "slow" charging stations for free all over the places where biz owners wanted to attract business. Then in as many places as we have gas stations would be pay-for-charge fast-chargers. On a daily basis, you depend on the slow chargers, and your slow home charger (like we have done for five years now). When you drive a distance, you pay $10 every 200 miles for a 15 minutes quick charge and be on your way.

The hybrid trailer allows for unlimited gasoline range. As long as it has fuel, you can drive at 65+mph continuously. Without trying to sound all mysterious... I can't really go into my relationship with that trailer right now. I will tell you that it was officially commissioned by Toyota, and built by ACP (I probably already said that on my site, didn't I?) It is an amazing piece of sophistocated engineering that worked VERY well. But it died right along with the state's ZEV mandate (and even the fast-charging that was developed at the same time).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 18 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]257542[/snapback]</div>

That seems awfully high. That wouldn't help you save much money. Especially if you own a Prius.

Darell, what type of batteries did your Ranger have in it?

So for the person who went out and bought a Rav4 and something went wrong with it. Would they be able to take it into Toyota for service?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tracysbeans @ May 18 2006, 10:24 AM) [snapback]257551[/snapback]</div>

Well, first off, the $10 was a COMPLETE wild-nice person guess. Might be $20. or $5. The cost means nothing - was just a reference to make the story complete. If the only goal is to save money at the gas station, then I have nothing more to offer, really. I've never said that EVs are the cheapest form of transportation. Only that they are the BEST and CLEANEST form of transportation for SOME situations. We all pay for convenience. This is just one of them. An EV buys you the convenience of home refueling, the convenience of no oil changes, the piece of mind of keeping your energy dollars domestic, and your pollution to a minimum.

If the Prius is your ideal car, I'm not sure why either one of us is putting in the effort of this discussion....

And for this thread, we were originally talking about plug-ins, which make WAY more sense than today's Prius. You can happily drive it just like you are now, burning gasoline, remaining dependent on foreign sources of energy, and polluting all you'd like. OR, you could drive short distances on very clean (or at least cleaner), local power if you choose.

 

It isn't just about the money. If it was all about the money I wouldn't have paid $30,000 for my Prius. I would have gotten what I orginally planned to buy which was a Prius package #1 which I felt money wise I could justify with the tax credit instead of buying a Camry. I then saw all the cool things I could get if I uped my package. So I choose a #7 and have NO regrets at all for what I did.

I know this thread is about Plug Ins and I do hope they do that eventually with the Priuses. It just doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime soon. That's why I have been doing research on other alternatives. Gem being one of them.

Darell can I please send you something by private e-mail. I would appreciate it. Tracy

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tracysbeans @ May 18 2006, 11:04 AM) [snapback]257575[/snapback]</div>

Any time. My email is always in my signature.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tracysbeans @ May 18 2006, 11:04 AM) [snapback]257575[/snapback]</div>

And thanks for pointing this out! There are people who think nothing of adding $5-6k to their super cars with leather, GPS, DVD, etc... and will be the first to say that a $3k Plug-in premium would be WAY too much! We'll never make that back in gas savings! Gasp.

Same thing with the Prius. People are willing to get the top-of the line for thousands more... and yet consider a $3k plug-in option as too much because again... they can't make that money back on the gasoline??? How ya gonna make that money back on the leather... or the GPS? Resale? You have increased resale on the more expensive plug-in stuff too! Oh well.

Off my box, before somebody shoves me off.

 

My two cents, having never even sat in an EV before...

It is unrealistic to think that most people, or even many people, can afford to put a solar cell system up at their house to provide electricity. Some wont qualify for the loan, others wont have a place to put it, and still others simply wont want to. A good idea, certainly, but one that needs further development technologically.

Electricity from the grid is cheap. But if a substantial portion (>15%) of the population in my area (Orange County, California) bought EVs, there would not be enough generating power. Out here in Southern California, we are again facing the possibility of rolling blackouts due to the lack of sufficient generating capacity. We need another nuke plant or two or three, but nobody would want to build that, and nobody would want that in their town. As it is, there are generating stations that some cities want to tear down and replace with resorts because the resorts would make them more money. But even if there were enough...

The current EVs need to be developed more. If I were to consider an EV, it would have to be able to go 200 miles w/o deep discharging the battery and be fully recharged in 6 hours (I would prefer 2 hours, but I dont think that is going to happen). The Prius manages the charge of the battery, and it does it well. Sometimes we understand what it is doing, sometimes we dont. EVs need the same management, if not more so, as they are more dependent upon their batteries than the Prius is. What we have in the Prius is a car that has a large battery along with a generator big enough to recharge it that can also act as a motor to propel the car.

I applaud the likes of Darrel who is willing to use an EV. That is fine, and this is the way that technology is pushed. For me and what I do for work, I could not use any of the current crop of EVs. I do, however, drive my Prius rather than a Hummer, so I am not 'all that bad'.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finally_got_one @ May 18 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]257579[/snapback]</div>

And you sure don't have to, to enjoy most of the benefits that EVs offer. The cool part is that you CAN grow your own power if you desire/have the resources. You don't have that choice with a gasoline car. Some people actually hold it against me that I CAN and DO use solar power for my vehicle. The implication is that just because everybody can't do it, that it doesn't do any good that I, and others ARE doing it. Amazing. Before I had solar, I paid extra to my utility to support green sources of energy for my grid. Now I sell them my own green energy when I'm not using.

I could go on about this for way too long... Most EV charging is done overnight when we have PLENTY of capacity. Few charge during the day for many practical and financial reasons. SoCalEdison estimates that we can charge 1 million EVs today with zero negative impact on the grid. We will never get them over-night. We'll have to grow the infrastructure with the vehicles - just like we did with gasoline. We didn't have ANY gas stations when we started that project 100 years ago! We keep adding houses, businesses and people. Thse ALL use electricity. And the biggie that I always enjoy bringing up: an EV doesn't use any more electricity than a gasoline car! Once that is understood, then game over.

The EVs already do better. We use 100% of the SOC, and the batteries are lasting the life of the car (10+ years, 150k+ miles). The Prius protects the battery by not allowing you to use most of it.

Thanks for the nice words, and thanks for doing what you can. A word of caution when you say "current crop of EVs." There is no such thing! The only production EVs on the road were designed over 10 years ago, using 10-year-old battery technology, they were made under duress, and you can't buy them today. That's not "current" by any metric in MY book! Comparing anchient EV tech with what we could/should have today just makes me sad. I keep imagining a Prius-quality EV, and THAT is what would make many of us very happy. For grins, imagine what your computer was like ten years ago, and compare it to what you are using today. THAT'S about the difference we'd realize in EV performance today. If we'd continued to make them since the early 90's, we'd have just what you were looking for. Longer range, high performance and quick recharge.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 18 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]257588[/snapback]</div>

BUT this is exactly the problem. Today we can ONLY imagine how nice it would be for many reasons way beyond financial reasons. It's gets old though when you want something NOW but you can only dream that someday it will happy. Makes me think about justing forking over the $10,000+ for the someone to make it a Plugin and throw my warranty out the window. Are we going to be dreaming about this until we all aren't on this earth anymore. I can see why you get frustrated Darell why are we going backwards on what was already available?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 18 2006, 01:10 PM) [snapback]257577[/snapback]</div>

But it is nice to see the gas savings I get with my Prius. To me I'm already saving money from Day 1 with my Prius. Why because let's say I went out and bought a loaded Mustang. I would have paid $30,000+ for that too. So as far as I'm concerned in MY case I have had savings from Day 1 with my Prius since I would have paid the same with for something else that wouldn't have been so good on gas.

So it does concern me if I would get and EV and then have to pay for example $10 for a charge every 200 miles. I would get the EV for many reasons BUT one being able to save money. I suppose though 90% of the time I would be driving it just locally and I wouldn't have to worry about that issue much.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 18 2006, 11:25 AM) [snapback]257588[/snapback]</div>

Even so, given the current generating capacity, it needs to be replaced. I know of several generators out here that are pushing 50 years old, one that is well past 60. Some of them are to the point where they cost more to fix than they are worth.

Yeah, I have been looking at the EVs that are currently available...NOT! That is one of the problems...the EV seems to have dropped off the radar of the bigger car companies in favor of something that burns something, whether it be gasoline or hydrogen.

Still, I have to wonder what would happen to the mileage on a Prius if the current batteries were swapped out for LI-Ion batteries...

 

"Still, I have to wonder what would happen to the mileage on a Prius if the current batteries were swapped out for LI-Ion batteries..."

Apparently the rumor-mill says 2009 Prius.

 

Y'know what would make a lot of sense to me? Swappable add-on packs
of some sort. Like what the EnergyCS or Hymotion folks are offering,
but in an easily *REMOVEABLE* format that would just slide into the
back somewhere and take up a little room that would otherwise be
occupied by luggage. And having a couple of these, so I could leave
one charging at home, drop another into the car for that day's
errands, and then swap later or just recharge it while it's still
in the car. Or for a long haul with lots of gear, leave the extra
packs out entirely and run with the normal little "energy boucepad"
we're used to.
.
Just like everybody does now with cameras, cellphones, laptops,
cordless tools, whatever. Many people have two battery packs for
these toys for the obvious reasons. Why not for the car, too? Then
I can choose my options based on anticipated route, luggage quantity,
or whatever. Charge in the living room or the car, doesnt matter.
.
With today's technology swappable packs of any appreciable capacity
would be somewhat heavy, but nothing that a normal person and an
appropriate wheeled cart couldn't handle. The plug-in mechanism
could be made relatively bullet- and idiot-proof with a big Anderson
connector and a small connector for the control electronics, and the
car would just figure out what's installed at the time and how to
best use it. And hopefully in an intelligent way that allowed extra
regen capacity, if needed, in the add-on pack if you dropped it in
and then had to go all the way down a mountain.
.
Perhaps similar to the "swap packs at the refueling station" concept,
but I would own and manage them myself.
.
afterthought/edit: the packs themselves could also be smaller, to get
around the weight problem. Each would have some onboard smarts and
internal safety relays, and the electronics would sort it all out.
You'd just snap in more of them based on what you had and how far you
were going. Like stacking dilithium crystals into the warp core.
.
_H*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finally_got_one @ May 18 2006, 11:39 AM) [snapback]257595[/snapback]</div>

Certainly we need to replace/upgrade what needs replacing or upgrading. But that needs to happen anyway - shouldn't be put on the shoulders of EVs. Just a tiny example of the mis-directed concern: My neighbor's pool uses more electricity in one summer than our EV uses for 12,000 miles (a year's worth) of driving. Where's the outrage toward pool owners? Or those who live where they need central AC? I won't belabor the point. Our electricity useage is huge. If we can afford the electricity for pools, AC, 24-hour Safeways and gasoline cars - we can certainly afford the electricity for the replacement EVs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ May 18 2006, 02:06 PM) [snapback]257690[/snapback]</div>

Hobbit -

You'll be happy to know that this has been batted around for quite some time. One reasonable idea is to have one standard-sized small pack that every vehicle can use. A small two-seater would just use one pack. A sedan would use two. An SUV would hold four, etc. You pull into the battery station and park over the swapping system. In five minutes you're on your way with a fesh pack, and your old one gets charged for the next guy. You would own the car, but lease the batteries, and they'd be rotated out of service when near the end of their life. Could happen.

 

Yes, I'm aware that the "commercial swap station" idea has been
around for a while. That requires standardization across many
industries and competing companies, and building of a fairly
significant new infrastructure. I'm talking about an interim play
that could be done *now* -- where the vehicle owner has several packs
or sets of packs, they can be custom-designed for that vehicle or
manufacturer's subset of vehicles, you don't have $5/hr chimpanzees
manhandling them at public stations, and the only "standard" needed
is the means of plug-in charging which is already well-established.
It only requires a little more work on the part of the owner to judge
the needs for the trip and plan accordingly, and move energy
storage units in and out of the vehicle as needed himself -- might
still suck a little for apartment dwellers, but even there I see the
ability to bring packs *inside* to charge them far more workable
than depending on an apartment complex installing and maintaining
charging infrastructure in its parking lot for *everyone*, let alone
the risks of people coming along and screwing around with it.
Eliminates the billing question, too.
.
_H*