Plug-ins do they make sense?

How about this for a refuelling strategy for people with no home-access to recharging....

90% of the time you recharge your EV at the supermarket or the mall while it's parked in the parking lot. A half-hour shop gives you 200 miles range and the store benefits by selling you some (cheap) electricity and gaining your custom.

But sometimes you need to go on a long trip. No need to buy a range-extending trailer because the gasoline filling stations are desperate to regain your custom, long lost to Walmart, and will hire you one for $20 plus the cost of the gasoline (which they supply). They always have models in each of the different sizes... 15 kW, 30 kW, 50 kW. Easy.

Most of the time, when on low battery charge you can cruise into the nearest filling station to hire one of these. But very occasionally you find yourself caught out. Then you just call any of the competing gasoline companies, and they'll bring out a range-extender to your location for hire from that location.

Who needs an engine on board all the time? Waste of energy and luggage space.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 19 2006, 10:43 AM) [snapback]258141[/snapback]</div>

We sure agree there! I don't particularly want to lug around the gas tank, exhaust system, engine, transmission for the 90% of the time I don't need it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 20 2006, 02:50 AM) [snapback]258144[/snapback]</div>

We sure agree there! I don't particularly want to lug around the gas tank, exhaust system, engine, transmission for the 90% of the time I don't need it.
[/b][/quote]
I agree too! Toyota is going to sell one million hybrids in 2012.
How many plug-in hybrid can be sold then?
I believe the market is small. Following is my opinion...

Code:

vehicle type          market size  expertise   cost
===================   ===========  =========   ====
conventional vehicle  huge         fair        fair
hybrid vehicle        big          hard        high
plug-in hybrid        small        very hard   very high (depends on battery)
battery EV            small        little hard very high (depends on battery)

edit: expertise:hard means including warranty issues.

daniel wrote on another thread...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 19 2006, 11:50 PM) [snapback]258025[/snapback]</div>

I believe most people want "Just drive" type of cars.

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 19 2006, 12:47 PM) [snapback]258207[/snapback]</div>

Not sure I understand the "very hard" expertise here. It would literally take no extra effort to have made the Prius a plug-in, if the battery capacity were bigger. It was designed specifially NOT to be a plug in - it could have gone the other way if demand and/or politics were different. And it would have required no extra expertise... just more (expensive) battery.

There's very little question about what most people "want." We're getting to a point where we need to consider what the world "needs." People *want* a huge car that will do everything, be safe, be easy to park, cost very little to service and fuel, and have unlimited power. There's a limit to how much "want" we can all afford.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 19 2006, 12:53 PM) [snapback]258211[/snapback]</div>

There may be a limit, not too far off, to how long we can afford private cars at all, unless we start building renewable-energy infrastructure pretty darn soon.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 19 2006, 05:56 PM) [snapback]258377[/snapback]</div>

I'm not worried I'll just let my kid deal with it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 19 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]258207[/snapback]</div>

You can't beat an EV for that! Press the accelerator and go - probably the easiest type of vehicle to drive there is! A series-hybrid would be exactly the same.

As for people being too lazy to plug-in, I think soon they will only need to park near a charger and a bluetooth guided automatic arm will do the rest as they walk off to the shops. First they'll notice of it is an item on their credit card from the electric-co.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 20 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]258520[/snapback]</div>

More like "misinformed" than lazy. Takes me WAY less time to plug in, than to gas up. I spend a total of about 3 seconds a day charging - and it is done in the comfort of my garage - not outside on greasy asphalt in the elements. If I were driving a gas car the same number of miles, I'd be spending at least 15 minutes/week driving out of my way to the gas station, filling up, paying, and getting back on the road. Just getting the gas cap off and hanging it somewhere takes more time than plugging in the EV.

 

My dream car is a tzero. But I don't want to pay more for a car than I paid for my house.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 20 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]258567[/snapback]</div>

Not many dream cars out there that're cheap! But hey, for $100,000 you can buy a car that is faster in the standing quarter mile than any production car that costs less than $million.... the X1.

(Same drivetrain as the Tzero, cheaper, significantly faster, and with less skin)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 20 2006, 02:15 PM) [snapback]258572[/snapback]</div>

I don't want a race car and I don't want that ugly thing and I don't even want the fastest car on the road. I want the tzero because it's sleek and because it's cool, and because it's good looking, and because it's all electric all the time, and because it can go a couple of hundred miles on a charge. And I want it because it'd be a girl magnet.

The X-1 doesn't even look as though it'd be street-legal.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 20 2006, 05:54 PM) [snapback]258662[/snapback]</div>

The Tzero is most definitely a "race car" in the same class as the X1. VERY spartan interior, extremely firm ride, little clearance.

Well... beauty and the eye of the beholder... all that. You WILL have to suffer through being the fastest car on the road unless you see the X1 though.

Competely street legal and properly registered an licensed. It should be illegal to drive ANYTHING this fast on the road.

 

I just like the looks of the tzero. Not the X-1.

On the other hand, if it was street-legal I'd want one of those "recliner" cars we saw at the alternative fuel fair in Lacey. Those were cool! Impractical, but cool.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 20 2006, 04:58 PM) [snapback]258566[/snapback]</div>

Its me again, More like "misinformed" than lazy.Takes me WAY less time to plug in, than to gas up. I spend a total of about 3 seconds a day charging. You fully charge in 3 seconds? hell I'll buy one where do I sign up?

Or are you saying it only takes 3 seconds to plug in and charge while your at home.?.

Not sure I understand the "very hard" expertise here. It would literally take no extra effort to have made the Prius a plug-in, if the battery capacity were bigger. It was designed specifially NOT to be a plug in - it could have gone the other way if demand and/or politics were different. And it would have required no extra expertise... just more (expensive) battery.

The idea behind not letting the battery fully charge or fully drain was so the battery had a longer life, right?
at least thats what I got out of it..

Again if they made a car that was pure EV and had on board solar & brake regeneration and you only have the plug for emergency power.. they could charge the customer 40-50k and you would have a self-reliable vehicle that would be a vehicle worth buying in my book... but I dont think they'll ever make it as the dealers would only make a one time profit or possible repair..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 21 2006, 11:37 AM) [snapback]258883[/snapback]</div>

Yes, that is what I am saying. On a daily basis, we invest about 3 seconds for charging. The car sits and charges for many hours, of course. But unlike at a gas station, you don't have to be there to witness the whole process, and you don't have to drive out of your way or even swipe your credit card during the fillup process. All considered, it takes about 10-15 minutes of my time to fill up a gas car. It takes three seconds of my time to fill up the electric. And yes there are exceptions to all of this. I'm only telling you my personal experience.

Hmm. Still doesn't make sense to me. No expertise involved. I fill all the way up when I need to, and I drain it all the way down when I need to. The folks who've been doing this for ten+ years have no problems. Takes WAY more expertise to fill the gas tank without dripping gas on the car or on your hand.

The main reason a vehicle like this does not exist is because the panels to make it happen don't exist. As it is today, you could build a car that would gain about 1-2 miles of range from the sun on a perfect day. That's not worth the effort for most folks. The solar panels belong on the roof of the garage where you have enough room for a properly-sized array, and the panels can turn sun into electricity all day, even when the car is parked in the shade of the garage/trees/buildings.

If we could make self-powered cars... we would. Simple as that. Turns out that the next-best is solar-powered cars where the power comes from a local array to which the car is plugged in.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 20 2006, 04:53 AM) [snapback]258211[/snapback]</div>

I added note about the battery warranty.
I believe it is difficult to meet tha CARB required battery warranty.

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 21 2006, 05:39 PM) [snapback]258987[/snapback]</div>

Nobody really knows what that warranty requirement would be since that class of vehicle does not yet exist.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 22 2006, 09:43 AM) [snapback]258989[/snapback]</div>

I think I've heard that one of the resons was the battery warranty issue when Toyota decided to teminate the RAV4-EV.

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 21 2006, 06:14 PM) [snapback]259004[/snapback]</div>

Interesting. That certainly has not been a problem, and it is not one of the official reasons that Toyota gave for the termination (which came exactly one day after the ZEV mandate was abandoned by CARB).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 22 2006, 12:14 PM) [snapback]259075[/snapback]</div>

Then...
Would you please tell us what the ZEV mandate was?

Ken@Japan