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Polar Ice for 2018

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Every time there is a slug of polar air over the lower 48, a similar sized slug of warm air reaches polar regions:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i think it is forming here as we speak.
     
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  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Ah, conservation of slugs. Or as has been said "wind happens when the atmosphere finds itself in the wrong place".
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    "Not in my backyard" is often used to claim today's local weather in the eastern regions of the USA is proof of no global warming. But in the meanwhile Arctic ice continues to 'less freeze'. This open paper discusses in more precise terms than my 'slug of cold weather' why this happens:
    http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-D-16-0259.1

    21 Abstract
    22 The extra-tropical stratosphere in boreal winter is characterized by a strong circumpolar
    23 westerly jet, confining the coldest temperatures at high latitudes. The jet, referred to as the
    24 stratospheric polar vortex, is predominantly zonal and centered around the pole; however, it
    25 does exhibit large variability in wind speed and location. Previous studies showed that a
    26 weak stratospheric polar vortex can lead to cold-air outbreaks in the mid-latitudes but the
    27 exact relationships and mechanisms are unclear. Particularly, it is unclear whether
    28 stratospheric variability has contributed to the observed anomalous cooling trends in mid-
    29 latitude Eurasia. Using hierarchical clustering, we show that over the last 37 years, the
    30 frequency of weak vortex states in mid to late winter (January and February) has increased
    31 which were accompanied by subsequent cold extremes in mid-latitude Eurasia. For this
    32 region 60% of the observed cooling in the era of Arctic amplification, i.e. since 1990, can be
    33 explained by the increased frequency of weak stratospheric polar vortex states, a number
    34 which increases to almost 80% when El Niño/Southern Oscillation (ENSO) variability is
    35 included as well.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Extreme cold outbreaks seem to be phenomena of little agreement at this time with respect to AGW.

    AMS just published a series of papers of the anthropogenic effect on various meteorological events that have occurred recently ( Explaining Extreme Events from a Climate Perspective - American Meteorological Society ). One of those events included a record cold outbreak in China in 2016:


    Anthropogenic influences are estimated to have reduced the likelihood of an extreme cold event in midwinter with the intensity equal to or stronger than the record of 2016 in eastern China by about two‑thirds.

    http://www.ametsoc.net/eee/2016/ch23.pdf


    IPCC also concluded in AR5 (page 162 of the final report) that the number of cold days and nights have decreased and the number of warm days and nights have increased due to anthropogenic influences (the confidence level was "very likely"). The entire distribution of temperatures, including extremes, is being moved upscale according to AR5.

    I also remain skeptical that decreasing poles-to-tropics thermal gradient (from "polar amplitude" - poles warming relatively more than other regions) results in increased amplitude in the upper air flow over the mid-latitudes.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks for the references, I look forward to learning more. Just I have a slightly different take on polar, temperature, and tropical zone temperature/heat differences.

    It has been my observation with water that the greater the temperature difference, the greater the turbulence between the hot and cold regions. It is a simple experiment:
    1. Fill a glass container with 77F (25C) water and put a layer of ice cubes on the top (i.e., the ratio of polar area to non-polar.). Observe the turbulence.
    2. Fill a glass container with 122F (50C) water and put in ice cubes in the same shallow layer
    3. Fill a glass container with 215F (100C) water and put in the same ice cubes.
    It is the turbulence that reflects the brief but well documented temperature extremes. Meanwhile we can observe the reduced, polar ice because warmer air invades to replace the cold air that slings down towards the equator. Simple physics, there is a reason why I focus on polar ice.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    I completely agree that the greater the thermal gradient, the greater the turbulence, and vice-versa.

    Based on my observations as a NWS operational meteorologist, the greater the turbulence, the greater the amplitude of the upper tropospheric flow over the mid-latitudes, but weak upper flow typically results in low-amplitude flow.

    A seasonal minimum in thermal gradient between polar region and tropics occurs in mid to late summer. It's my experience that upper flow weakens and the amplitude of the flow relaxes relative to other seasons of the year. This new premise is that as upper flow weakens. the amplitude of the flow increases. Extreme cold outbreaks occur during periods of very high-amplitude flows (i.e., deep troughs).

    I'm willing to keep an open mind about this increased upper flow amplitude during times of weaker flow velocities, but it really goes against my experiences.
     
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We agree which is why I suspect the recent hurricanes are fueled by a different effect, higher humidity from equatorial seas. In this respect the satellite data is shallow.
    We agree about the cold but I have to think about the 'upper flow weakens.' I am thinking about how a high energy vortex tends to tighten its radius while one with less energy tends to widen its radius. We see this in wing tip vortex that start with a small, intense radius but widens as it slows further beyond and behind the wing.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it has been warmer and less snow in moscow than boston.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Patience, the winter winds of 2017-18 are far from over.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    whatever, 22 days and i'm out of here. maybe frostbite falls is enough to make my wife natasha agree to leave earlier next year.
     
  13. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    That may explain the polar vortex expanding in radius, but it doesn't address the increase in "waviness" of the flow around the polar vortex. These extreme cold outbreaks even into sub-tropical regions are the result of very high amplitude troughs; the "warmer weather in Moscow than Boston" is the result of a corresponding high-amplitude ridge in that region of the world.

    As I have mentioned, I am keeping an open mind regarding this phenomenon, but for now, I'm sticking with the premise that these extreme cold outbreaks are occurring in spite of AGW and Arctic ice disappearance, not because of them.
     
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  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The recent bomb cyclone arrived at Camp Summit Greenland:
    [​IMG]
    Almost a heat wave.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Concerning Greenland ice. This is first study I have seen of geothermal flux beneath it:

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180111115324.htm

    We had another thread addressing geothermal flux under Antarctica, Yellowstone and even by sidewalk ice melters. Seems worthwhile to add to that, most of Greenland is <100 milliwatts /m2. Areas of 150 are quite limited.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Interesting but it begs the question if a sounding survey could map ground level water?

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    No idea. But this is a very big place and not easy to get around.

    Is possible by airborne survey?

    Can somebody print some money to pay?
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hummmm, if we could claim it would disprove man-made global warming.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source:
    How severe is Cape Town's drought? A detailed look at the data | News24


    The drought, as manifested by rainfall in the region of WCWSS dams, is indeed very rare, and very severe.

    Importantly, the analyses reveal that the drought was likely less severe in the coastal plains and in Cape Town itself. A possible reason for that might be a weaker penetration of cold fronts that bring winter rainfall to the region into the higher and distant inland regions.

    I bring this up because the Antarctic sea ice has some continental points close by:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What are the rainfall trends for:
    • South America (?)
    • Australia/Tasmania/New Zealand (?)
    • South Africa (drought)
    Bob Wilson
     
    #19 bwilson4web, Jan 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    In a recent interview Mr. Trump suggested that polar ice, while expected (by someone?) to disappear by now, was instead at record levels. Both places I have seen the quote said "record levels" as opposed to record high levels. One might suppose that 'high' was implied by context.

    This is not the Arctic situation according to NSIDC. I seem unable to post an image now; perhaps Bob our Iceman cometh.

    It is perhaps possible that Trump meant Antarctic sea ice was at record high levels? It was in 2014 but has diminished markedly since then. That does not make much sense because no one has predicted that sea ice there would disappear.

    In any case it is hard to know where these Presidential opinions come from. I'd expect NOAA to keep quiet about this - they have programmatic interests to protect.