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Population growth in 21st century

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    It is widely reported that 2050 will have 9 or 10 billion humans, up from current 7.7. This matters much for all we might call 'environmental'.

    Starting here with Africa for several reasons. There, total fertility rate (children born per female during lifetime) includes highest. Many country economies are not in good shape there. Warfare and other violence are troubling.

    african countries TFR.png

    After making these I thought it might have been better to invert GDP color scale and make red lowest and thus most troubling. Did not, but perhaps it's clear enough this way.

    On TFR side, a basic idea is that 2 means stable population. In poor countries one would consider lower survival of young ones vs. disease and nutritional challenges. So broadly, it may be countries above TFR 3.1 where pops would increase rapidly. Africa has many such countries.

    On GDP side, see first that almost all countries are (globally) low. In many African countries, low GDP and high TFR occur together. One could certainly see that as their problem, but famines, conflicts and large population displacements are often of interest to rich world.

    These images together may inform on areas of particular concern. May inform on areas where external nations, including one large Asian nation, are paying attention to Africa. Read about that elsewhere.

    ==
    Broadly speaking, increased population presents economic burdens on rich countries elsewhere when growers have least GDP. Move up from that and +pop could represent economic trading opportunities. In future posts I will show other regions.

    The whole thing about providing water, food and energy for more people depends on where new ones are added.

    The whole thing about stabilizing population at 9 or 10 billions in 2nd half of 21st century will require higher mortality rates, at least in TFR hot spots. Sorry that I can't say that in any other way.
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it is what it is, and always was. when gdp goes up and pop growth decreases, they'll have to build walls
     
  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    My favorite TED speaker, the late Hans Rosling explains this phenomenon exquisitely in his talk. Long video but worth a look.

     
    #3 Salamander_King, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Watching Rosling now on TED (not youtube) and I agree with you completely.. Except I don't think it's too long.
     
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  5. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    So Sad, he did not get into the "last billion" population statistic he wished. We need people like him to live longer. RIP
     
    #5 Salamander_King, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Salamader_King's post completely changed what I had in mind for this thread. Should be a great improvement. Now we can consult Dr. Rosling's website

    Gapminder: Unveiling the beauty of statistics for a fact based world view.

    Generate individual hypotheses that folks want to discuss, and discuss them.

    User-defined data animation is vastly better than looking at any static color charts I might make.
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    That TED talk used data up until (about) 2002. Gapminder data sets are much more current, so folks intrigued by that TED talk could readily do updates.

    There is only one difficultly and it only affects those in places where docs.google.com are unavailable :(

    I'll look into that myself and report if there are interesting results.
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Responding to the second post, it would be better to say that economic growth often occurs on both sides of a border. Making a wall superfluous.
     
  9. bisco

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    as long as the border on the other side of the border is the ocean or somewhere almost as uninhabitable
     
  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Finished watching Gapminder video. Phew! That was a full lecture, though it was a very interesting one. Thanks for the link. So, if we believe in Rosling's statistics, and the human population stabilizes at 11 billion, the biggest question is if our world has a carrying capacity big enough to sustain 4 billion more of population growth. Another thing is that although his view sheds certain optimism for the human future, it is so anthropocentric. I still worry about the planet and other living things on it.
     
  11. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Another potential solution: Japan birthrate.

    Not sure they are the future or their own interesting case.

    Their current fertility rate is 1.4; it is often suggested that 2.1 is required in developed countries to keep the population stable.

    Of course the indication here is that a country would first have to get to the developed stage to really entertain this next step without it being forced onto the populace.
     
    #11 iplug, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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  13. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Been following the Japanese case with interest. Others may disagree, interested to hear various thoughts, but I feel the seriousness of problem for Japan is a bit overstated.

    The question of who will take care of the growing proportion of elderly comes up frequently. While this is a problem, people have grown more productive over time and now with AI and robotics evolving... on a per elderly capita basis, it takes fewer of the younger generation to care for one of advanced age than it did decades ago.

    Another question that comes up is Japan's high public debt. But almost all of this is internal debt and the great fears of inflation have never come to fruition. Quite the opposite, Japan's interest rates have been flat for a long time. They have not had a problem servicing their debt and this does not look to change in the foreseeable future.

    Also, the Japanese are doing fine on a GDP per capita basis. Could be better, but they are well into the developed zone when it comes to wealth and this will not likely go away. Their wealth has not grown tremendously in the last couple of decades, so this is an interesting natural experiment with what might happen to the rest of the world as population growth slows or reverses.

    There are all sorts of environmental implications as well, but would argue largely good ones. Pre-Fukushima per capita CO2 emissions were flat - encouraging that green house gas emissions did not increase as the population was shrinking.
     
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Relationships between high fertility rate and low economic status persist. At national or other levels. It seems pretty clear where the next few billions will be added. Challenges remain to make poor countries anything other than poor countries with larger populations in future decades.

    This is not inconsistent with Dr. Roslings optimistic and accurate assessments of previous decades.

    It was my thought, going in, that most people don't realize how few countries (or states within India) have very high fertility rates. In terms of future optimism this could indicate that problems are more tractable than they would be if high fertility were spread across all poorer countries.

    ==
    Japan is probably furthest along the opposite problem as iplug describes above. It may be incipient in China, where removal of one-child policy did not lead to an immediate baby boom. Where else? US may be short on new Social Security inpayers, which seems like a precursor to elder care in a broad sense. Italy seems to pop up similarly, and no doubt there are other examples.

    It is good to realize that population challenges include both 'too many somewhere and too few somewhere else' but that alone does not point to solutions.
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    On food-supply side, be aware that feasible modifications to photosynthesis could increase agricultural yields:

    How to feed the world by 2050? Recent breakthrough boosts plant growth by 40 percent -- ScienceDaily

    Without getting into details, photosynthesis is a complicated multi-step system with several inefficiencies. These are under serious study. Going further, more efficient plants potentially means that trees could trap CO2 more rapidly. This is not claimed in the Science article indirectly referenced above, but neither is it fanciful.

    Obviously there are plants that people don't want growing faster. So some caution is required.
     
  16. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    With regard to solutions, might make sense to look for them in places where we have a relatively low starting point, that currently maintain consistently high GDP growth for many quarters/years (rising GDP/capita), and have declining fertility rates.

    I would suggest a few examples meeting the aforementioned criteria:
    -China
    -India
    -Indonesia
    -Phillipines
    -Poland
     
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  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I made maps of India by states but not yet posted here. It might be a very good 'laboratory' for what iplug suggests.

    In contrast province-level data for China are not all readily available. They may be more deeply buried; at this time I am not asserting hidden. But fundamentally the one-child policy has distorted demographics there so maybe not such a good example.

    Interesting to see both Philippines and Indonesia listed. I think of both of them in terms of (various) natural disasters. Maybe a feature, not a bug, in this context.
     
  18. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    In Africa it is not just the poor but more so the extremely poor with the highest birth rates.

    In the last couple of decades other countries' birth rates have fallen markedly when birth control is a known and available option. Yes, improving economics is a major direct and indirect reason as well. Really, all these things are interconnected.

    Recent history shows that when people move from villages to cities couples want fewer children, partially because children are more costly. Looking at this from the other end, as their income, health, and security rises, they worry less that their children will die.

    Still, the fertility rate is declining more slowly in Africa than in other places with comparable trends noted above (compared with Asia and Central/South America).

    My 2 cents recommendation would be for public service/governments education campaigns for unforced/non-coercive birth control, especially in poor rural areas including education for girls.

    My suspicion is that many/most things will work themselves out in Africa as in other places, albeit at at slower rate if economic and social forces are left on their own. But because there are real risks and lives involved, we should try to help this along constructively but cautiously.