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Possible Gen3 Prius Transaxle Failure at 70,600 miles :(

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by GrumpyCabbie, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I fear I know the answer to my question but will ask it anyway.

    Tonight coming home I was going up a small hill/slope when there was a violent jolt, the car lost motive power (lights, steering, brakes still worked), all the warning lights came on and the car crawled to the side of the road. The warning "Check Hybrid System" came up on the screen.

    At the side of the road I switched the car off and back on again. It beeped the warning again, would move on EV but wouldn't switch the engine on. At this point I called the Toyota recovery people. 3 hours later at midnight I'm back home and the car is sat on the dealers looking sorry for itself waiting for me to call them tomorrow.

    So is this a failed transaxle? It has all the symptoms; sudden loss of power under load, all warning lights and no motive power (other than the ev system). Unfortunately the car is out of UK warranty which only runs to 60,000 miles on the early gen3's. My car has 70,630 miles on it and was serviced only a month ago.

    I'll be curious to see how Toyota deal with this tomorrow as I am past warranty but a transaxle should not be failing at 70,000 miles. The car has a full Toyota service history too.

    Or am I worrying over nothing and it is likely to be something minor?

    DSC01417.jpg
     
  2. gliderman

    gliderman Active Member

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    I thought the drivetrain was covered for a longer period, like 100k?
     
  3. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    US Toyota powertrain warranty is 5 year/60K miles.... There is some potential ambiguity about powertrain vs. what's listed under hybrid components, which have a longer warranty.

    Hope Toyota is willing to pick up all/much of the tab if it's a powertrain issue... out of goodwill.
     
  4. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Bummer! I was going to say inverter but you mention you could move in EV? MG1?
     
  5. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    UK hybrid warranty on early gen3's was 5 years or 60,000 miles. Later in June 2010 the warranty was lifted to 100,000 miles all in, but not back dated. Let's see if Toyota are gonna be flexible.

    The car does move on electric but very slowly, slower than it did normally, and the engine will not fire up. Sounds like MG1 to me too :(

    Not the start to 2013 I was looking for.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Include the MG1 inverter too. Also, don't rule out some of the traction battery risks. But in reality, diagnosis first and I sure wish you had a Prius-aware scanner.

    My sympathies but this risk also comes with being a pioneer. We took delivery of our 1.8L Prius in May 2009 and I expected there might be 'infantile problems.' Within six months, changes already in the pipeline started to show up and the 'brake pause' fix showed up the next February. Because it was a new car, we also replaced the transaxle oil and had it tested:
    • Higher rate of manufacturing debris than expected
    • Straight-line, 15k mi/~24km, to 15% viscosity loss
    BTW, your ability to move the car after the failure is a safety feature that is unique to our Prius. Definitely the engine is no longer 'running' yet the MG2 circuit provides enough power to move you to a 'safe place' to park.

    At the risk of another lecture about 'do not run out of gas' from those who have never done it as I have at least four times, deliberately, it is why it is important that fuel exhaustion have an explicit indication instead of being 'hidden' in the power flow display, loss of arrows. If you had reported the "power steering" error, I would include fuel failure which could include fuel pump as part of the ambiguity group.

    What speed were you traveling at when the failure occurred? The reason I ask is if it were under the hybrid threshold, 46 mph (74 km/h), I would not rule out an engine issue. Still, we need to understand the diagnosis.

    GOOD LUCK!
    Bob Wilson
     
  7. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Sorry to hear that, GC.
    I think Toyota will pay attention to your case, and fix it. Keep us informed, please.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    If possible, get a transaxle oil sample?

    We can worry about how to get it analyzed IF you can get a sample. About half a liter would be perfect but all contributions are accepted in the spirit offered.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    I would think only 10k out of warranty on what may be a major failure would a warrant a "good will" exception but OTOH, it's also on a vehicle used commercially. Commercial warranties in the USA are much more stringent. On some products, commercial use totally voids the warranty.

    GOOD LUCK!
     
  10. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    I believe in the UK Commercial use makes no difference, but this is clouded further by the fact that GC no longer uses the vehicle as a cab, but is now a private car. My own car was a company car used for industrial robot service and repair clocking up 65,000 miles in 2 years, and that does not affect the guaranty. To GC I hope this gets sorted quickly for you and at no cost. Let us all know how things work out. Good luck.

    John (Britprius)
     
  11. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    OK, that's good news on the commercial use aspect. In the USA, Toyota considers the transaxle a non-hybrid item and thus doesn't fall under the longer 100k or 150k mile hybrid warranty.
     
  12. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    In the UK the transaxle is considered part of the hybrid system but the problem is for GC that as he says the gen3 cars in the UK had a shorter guaranty than the gen2's it was only later mid 2010 after complaints that it was returned to the 100,000 miles. So GC's car is in the short guaranty period that only ran for about 12 mnths.
     
  13. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    Grumpy,

    Sorry to hear. Just curious, though, have you ever changed the transaxle fluid?

    Good luck on the diagnosis.
     
  14. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    GC I'm going to stick my neck out hear. I believe your problem will be either the toque limiter (clutch) or the drive shaft out of the it (first motion shaft in normal car). I know I will be totally wrong as there have been no reported problems with these components but that could explain the jolt and engine no start. Wild wild guess.
     
  15. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Probably about the threshold as I was following a slow truck (semi?) which are restricted to approx 40 mph on the road I was travelling. I do think it may have been that switch over threshold at about 45 mph where the issue happened, though I was in Power mode as I was considering overtaking the truck.

    I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but about a mile earlier I had been going down a long fast slope at about 60-70 mph. As I was braking for the roundabout at the bottom of this hill I'm sure I heard a louder high pitched hum as the car slowed but I did have some classical music on at the time. When I'd turned the cd off the high pitched noise was no longer. Can't confirm if it was the CD or the inverter being much louder than usual. About half a mile later the car went pop.

    The dealers rang and are still working on the issue but they think it might be the inverter too.
     
  16. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    It's no longer commercial use and hasn't been for over a year. The car also has a full dealer service so I am hoping for some good will gesture. The girlfriend has a newer Toyota from the same dealers too. Fingers crossed.

    My argument is that a transaxle nor the inverter should fail this side of 100,000 miles whatever the use. I've had Peugeots and Fords that have run to around 300,000 miles with no issues and this Toyota which is meant to be a reliable brand has actually been a bit of a lemon (no lemon laws here). I've had 3 steering motors, a hybrid ECU, more rattles than I can count and now this. The other problem I'm finding is that I can't just take the car down the local taxi garage (still have the contacts) to get work done cheaply. It's main dealer or nothing.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Pure, unadulterated speculation:

    Braking while descending a hill at high speed has been the best way to put a maximum charge, the most electrically stressful load on MG2, the inverter, and the traction battery. The reason is high-speeds give a significant kinetic energy source exceeded only by the potential energy of the hill. Worse, charging NiMH batteries is exothermic and will heat them up in a hurry. This is why I recommend using "B" when descending steep grade, 8%, tall 160 m hills. This both moderates the speed and dumps the excess heat out the exhaust instead of stressing the electronics and battery.

    The high-frequency noise heard may have been the failing power electronic inducing noise in the 12V system. When the CD was turned off, the noise went away.

    Please ask the shop to take photos or let you take photos if there is anything opened up. If they do replace the transaxle, please beg an oil sample, a half-liter would be great. Also, the diagnostic codes . . . if possible.

    On our side of the pond, we have a car repair, radio show by "Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers." They recommend "bownies" as a way to . . . motivate car mechanics to share more details. . . .

    GOOD LUCK!
    Bob Wilson
     
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  18. Ed Burke

    Ed Burke Junior Member

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    ___________________________________________________________________________

    Don't jump to conclusions. Wait for a diagnosis of the problem. These cars are nearly bulletproof they have so few repairs. There are taxi's from Vancouver, BC to New York City with a lot more hard miles than your Prius, and they have shown no propensity for failures of anything.
     
  19. Agent J

    Agent J Hypoliterian

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    Sorry to hear that. I'm guessing inverter as well now that you've mentioned the higher-than-normal whine under long and hard regen braking. When that gave way, the ICE shut down, hence the sudden jolt, as a fail safe to the inverter. whatever charge that's left in the traction battery is what kept the car moving at safe mode.

    If that's the case, then it's an easy replacement covered by hybrid warranty.. if you bring your girlfriend with you with her car and let her charms do the negotiations. All the best! :)
     
  20. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    That's the problem - there is NO hybrid warranty. Toyota UK decided to reduce the entire warranty of the gen3 Prius down to 3 yrs/60,000 miles until July 2010 when it was increased to 5yrs/100,000 miles. This means early owners of the gen3 get a poor warranty.


    Regarding running on the charge of whats left of the traction battery. That was at 2 bars remaining when I last looked. If the inverter did fail on that down hill section, then I could have been inadvertantly running on electric for longer than I or the car would have liked. As I was going at slow speed I didn't notice it until I put my foot down and then the dash lit up.


    Also, and I do not know if this is speculation again too, but I haven't noticed the inverter making its usual high pitched noise when braking. When the car was new it always did and it was noticeable as I have sensitive ears, but in the last month or two it has been much quieter. I remember even checking the inverter fluid to see if I could see movement to make sure the pump was still working.


    Perhaps I'll find out today?