Possible harness-damage problem for 04-06 Prius

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Oct 2 2006, 09:26 AM) [snapback]326831[/snapback]</div>

You can't do it from the top, just see it. You can finger feel it from just past the air dam. I just put out a old bed sheet to lie on and felt for the wire bundle and plate. Just lay perpendicular to the front end use your preference right/left hand to find it. Slipping on the hose wasn't hard at all blind, but the tie-wrap may be difficult if your finger dexterity is limited. I used a 6" tie-wrap, bent in half helps to feed the male end into the female capture with one hand. This took all of about 20 minutes.

 

I finally got out there to check this out. Sounds like these plates are wrong on all the 2006's as well. I was still a bit confused as to the exact location of this thing (I thought it was behind and beside the engine, but find it is in the FRONT! (Hobbit's picture in relation to the oil pan is finally what clued me in - duh). Anyway, I thought I'd take some pictures of how it can be seen from the top. Thanks to everybody for helping out with this. I performed my temporary "fix" in less than five minutes with items on hand. Took way longer to make the simple page about it: http://evnut.com/prius_harness.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 4 2006, 03:33 PM) [snapback]328014[/snapback]</div>

I have been waiting since the PC crash to post on this topic. I have a picture that I wanted to attach that shows what I am talking about, but picture posting is still dead.

Like efusco, I went out and checked my car and Barb's car (2006, 6K miles; 2005, 20K miles). Same thing, the tab barely clears the block, and neither car has no sign of even the slightest nick on the harness. In both cases there is 1/4" or more clearance and the cable and its mountings are rigid enough that I doubt the cable will ever touch that tab.

However, I noticed two things:

1. Toyota has already addresed the problem, at least by December 2004 (Barb's car's build date).

2. I am not sure the plate is on backwards.

On point #1: go back to hobbits photos and look at the harness. You will see tape over the corregated harness cover in the area of the plate and tab. On both our cars I found that the tape covers a rigid (plastic?) protector that is a few inces long and centered on the location where the damage may occur. The tape secures it in place, I am not about to unwind it to take a look. The harness cover outside this area is fairly soft, this area is much more rigid. You can add another layer if you want (and some have), but his would be like having a belt, suspenders, and super glue holding your pants up.

On point #2, I really wish I could add my photo. As an engineer, I have to ask what the purpose of that tab is. It doesn't keep the plate from going on two ways. The dished section does not seem to serve any real purpose either. It is not deep enough to positively locate the plate if you flip it around. I am from the Detroit area originally, worked in a GM plant and have lots of friends in automotive engineering. The designer of that part wouldn't just toss those features in on a whim. I suspect the tab might be intended to help fend the harness (with its taped on protection) away from an even sharper edge on the engine block.

I put the block heater on my car. I cut my hand to ribbons on the sharp flashings left over all over the engine block. This part of the block has been cleaned up a bit, but my photo shows a sharper edge than the tab. One side of the plate is rounded and has a nice anti corrosion finish on it - that side faces out. If I turned the plate around, the sharper backside edge would face up and the rounded edge would be against the block leaving a feature that could catch more dirt than in the present orientation. I have to say if I had to guess from appearance I would install the plate the way it is.

Furthermore, we have reported that the assembly instructions say to put it on this way, the shop service manual the other way. Either one could be wrong. But in my experience in releasing products to manufacturing, the engineers spend a lot more time on the line making sure things go together the way they are supposed to and that the manufacturing documentation is correct. We spend a lot less time reviewing service documentation.

So there is what? - one possible report of a problem that may have been in that area of the cable. No one has found significant damage. And production for at least the last 1.75 years has an added layer of production added. This is the fix Audi used when they found a cable rubbing that caused fires which burned up several cars and at least one house (attached garage). On that one, I did find rubbing of the harness in my car and there was a recall.

So the call is yours. For me, I don't think there is a problem and Toyota has already addressed possible rubbing. However, if you do turn the plate around, be aware there is a torque spec on the bolts (around 24 ft-lbs if I remember correctly). Apparently they do more than just hold the plate on. I would be sure to get a torque wrench and use the right torque.

Just an alternative viewpoint.

- Tom

 

Just checked mine and its installed wrong. If I ever get time i'll try to flip it around like it should be or do something like darell did.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom_06 @ Oct 4 2006, 02:15 PM) [snapback]328098[/snapback]</div>

That tab DOES match up with the contour of the cast casing to which it is bolted if you flip it around. I'm not saying that it is a good "purpose" of a tab like that - but there's no way that *this* engineer can rationalize a sharp edge as a wire stand-off. Make that tab longer, and bend it over... add a zip tie around the bundle, and THEN I can see it is a very serviceable stand-off.

I agree that this thing isn't a big deal, and I'm also convinced that it is being installed backwards.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Oct 4 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]328131[/snapback]</div>

On my 2006, I wouldn't characterize it as a sharp edge. It is very nicely finished and rounded on the one side. I agree it does seem like an odd stand-off, but it really doesnt need to be done as a free standing tab if it is meant to follow the block contour. And it still seems to stick out when mounted the other way - an odd thing for an assembly guide. The way it is mounted from the factory, it presents a flat edge instead of the pointed spot from the engine block. See hobbit's page at http://techno-fandom.org/%7Ehobbit/cars/starthole/ to see it installed flipped and it doesn't look like that tab serves any good purpose either way.

On hobbit's page, he also shows the 2004 repair manual that shows the plate mounted tab up. When I look at the 2006 documentation, the torque is listed as 24 ft-lbs (2004 said 23 ft-lbs) and the assembly instructions are far less clear on orientation. The newer (early 2006) documentation is found under the engine stuff at page EM-104 of the service repair manual. I would post it if the picture stuff was working. In any case all it says is:

"(b.) Install the flywheel housing side cover and starter
hole insulator with the 2 bolts.
Torque: 32 N*m (326 kgf*cm, 24 in.*lbf)
(c.) Install the engine wire harness to the engine
assembly with transaxle."

If you put it on the way most are suggesting is correct, the stamping for this part looks backwards - the finished edges look wrong to me. I'll post the photos and manual diagrams if we ever should get picture posting back. I could be convinced it could go either way, but it really does seem improbable to me that Toyota would be assembling this "wrong" for 3+ years.

In any case, I think the cable is well protected on the 2005 and 2006 by the piece under the tape.

- Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom_06 @ Oct 4 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]328166[/snapback]</div>

The tab on mine is similar. ONE edge (from the side where the stamp entered the sheet) is round and nice. The OTHER edge is sharp enough for surgery, however. I actually cut my finger when I was first just feeling around for it. I likely should have included the shot of my bloody stump.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Oct 4 2006, 07:37 PM) [snapback]328169[/snapback]</div>

Sounds like the die is wearing out? My car is 11/05 build, Barb's is 12/04. Our's are not that sharp, but not real smooth on that side. If it goes on opposite of built, that sharp edge is up. The dimple and the tab make it seem like its assembled wrong, but then I think the dies are set up backwards for punching. Mechanical engineers are very careful about this stuff, even grain direction in the metal. Someday I'll post my photo of it. I don't have time to fill out the rest of the 1000 words.

- Tom

 

I just checked mine and it on wrong too. I have to zip tie it this weekend.
Thanks for letting me know.

 

Thanks Hobbit. I had my dealership check mine today during my first oil change, and asked to take pictures of it. It was installed reversed, so I had them turn it to the correct position.

 

I'm sorry guys. I dont see this as a problem and you all are too sensitive. If YOU are worried about it, go fix it. Flipping the plate around will take 10 minutes max. Bending the harness will take all of 1 minute. Come on, are we all really that lazy and fat that we should DEMAND that it be fixed at Toyota for free? The reason Toyota isn't fixing it is because they have done a cost benefit analysis and have determined it's just not worth it. Do exactly the same thing they did and decide if you want to fix it. If you do, don't whine... just spend 5 minutes and fix it yourself if you think you should!

You know, there are far more deadly things lurking in your own home like lead paint and lead soldered copper pipes that cause damage to our bodies and really do cause harm. Furnaces that leak CO2, and hot water heaters set so high they will scald you. Pesticides that are sprayed regularly to control termites and radon emitted from the ground under our houses. If you feel you must do SOMETHING to help prevent even one death then go put smoke detectors in each bedroom and utility closests where fires start. If all of you did just that one thing, many, many people would survive that fire that is much more likely to occur in your home and you can credit yourself for saving their LIFE because of that 6.95 smoke detector not a wire harness that matters not at all in the grand sceme of things. Go check those things if you must find stuff to dwell over.
-Paul R. Haller-

 

Paul, you could stand to be a little more polite when expressing your opinion.

Taking this into Toyota specifically is important because there are a lot of Prius owners who will never visit this forum - they may not even use the Internet. It's not that difficult to bring it to Toyota, and you accomplish more "for the greater good" that you're stressing by bringing it in and encouraging a Service Bulletin rather than keeping it to yourself.

 

Yup mine too - so no difference with European models
Only had my Pruis barely a year and the harness had a small notch in it were the metal protusion rubs against it.
I found a thick rubber hose in the garage, cut it from top to bottom so I could open it enough to go over the point where the harness was getting rubbed and tied it up tight.

If my dealer won't change the plate around I will do it myself when I do my next oil change.

I know some may say this is all a lot of hoo-hah but it does give you peace of mind - so in my view its worth it.

 

I'll admit to saying many don't know about this forum but the reality is so what? I can never figure others motivations like choosing to smoke when we now know without any doubt about its ill effects. I like to fuss with my 70 GTO Judge. My wife thinks I'm crazy for owning it and my fussing over it.. Most others do too. It has lousy brakes, no ABS, no skid control and no side impact protection and no air bags no 5 mile per hour bumpers and no side curtains. It does have a 455 engine and the price per barrel of oil fluctuates when I turn the key. I still like it and it currently is worth almost 3 times what my 06 Prius is worth. What's the value in that? I choose not to drive it much because of these failings and buy a Prius to drive daily. The GTO is a piece of **** compared to my Prius. I make the choices and to be informed. Many don't.

This forum is made up of people who choose to care and spend a great deal of time about this one car as witnessed by the time they spend here. Mainstream people call us fanatics and I think, as a whole, we are fanatical about the Prius. My wife owns an 05 Prius and chooses to know nothing about it and never, never, even though I am a member, chooses to log on here. So, she buys the extended warranty and sells the car after 5 years. She is typical of mainstream American consumers. She absolutely will not wrench on it even if she knew of a problem and could fix it. We all make our choices. If you choose to worry about this, do what you must but I really don't see the need. After all, we have one reported incedent and no constant reports here of this being a problem. If we were to hear about it anywhere, it would be here and if it were a problem we certainly, as fanatical as we all are about our Prius, would report it here.

I have been in some way, my whole life, a car fanatic and I will be the first to shout to the top of my lungs if there is a real known problem and there is a history of it being well known and documented. Remember the Audi that would launch on its own or, more recently, Ford explorers that flip over because of underinflated tires? That is just not the case here. Watch it carefully and see if it really is a problem and then if Toyota won't, spend 5 minutes and fix it if you can. I wrench on my Cummins diesel all the time, My 96 4runner, and my Ford Taurus wagon. I'm certainly not mainstream. My GTO? well, that's a lifetime of wrenching but I choose to do it and NO, I don't call GM and ask why my GTO built in 1970 doesn't have 3 point seat belts like came in my 66 Volvo.
-Paul R. Haller-

 

when you go to turn the plate around, be carefull not to slash your hands open on the sharp machined edge of the housing where the harness will now rub.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paul R. Haller @ Oct 27 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]339567[/snapback]</div>

Dude

Not everyone is even physically capable of fixing it themselves, or they may not have tools or space to work on cars. It can have nothing to do with being Lazy or Fat.

Besides the point others have made that if it's a genuine risk to damage the wiring harness (however small the risk is) due to an Assembly ERROR by Toyota, then leaving it to people to find out about the problem (or not) and make their own arrangements to fix it on their own is, really, massively bogus.

As for the rest of your rant - If I bought a smoke detector, and found it had an obvious defect that had the potential to cause it to stop working you're DARNED RIGHT I'D EXPECT THEM TO REPLACE IT, and I'd also expect them to replace them for everyone else who bought them regardless of whether they 'noticed' the defect.

Not a very good analogy.

I must say I'm VERY disappointed in Toyota's response to this so far.

We have the assembly diagram showing the correct orientation, and I have it in writing from my dealership that mine is assembled incorrectly, though they refuse to fix it without an OK from Toyota Central.

One thing I do know - since I'm on record with Toyota as having reported the problem and them verifying in writing that it's incorrect, if it ever does cause me any grief at all, they will wind up paying for it, and if it causes me or mine any harm they will pay in spades.

I still haven't given up on getting them to do the right thing though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paul R. Haller @ Oct 27 2006, 03:21 PM) [snapback]339661[/snapback]</div>

Not a good example to illustrate your point. That was an imaginary problem by drivers who were guilty of pedal error.