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Possible undiscovered performance and MPG issues with Prius v (lowercase v)

Discussion in 'Prius v Fuel Economy' started by kirill626, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. schmuly

    schmuly Member

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    Do you think the quality of the gas is slipping with the price?
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    indubitably.
     
  3. kirill626

    kirill626 Junior Member

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    I spent a lot of time on the brakes leaving them my special attention. I did the work surface temperature measurements and compare data. At the end, I disabled all 4 high pressure line and manually pushed the pistons in. Parking brake shoes removed completely. All that did not help but like version had been checked and validated. Later, I rebuild all 4 calipers on my Prius.
    Most likely I won’t be able to have a chance in the near future to compare the Prius (trailer vs. normal) since I have no more orders to purchase these cars overseas due to the very high dollar value :-(
     
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  4. alekska

    alekska Active Member

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    After brakes have been eliminated, the alignment/roll-out version feels even more viable

    - Alex
     
  5. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    On the forums on another model, someone is citing severe MPG degradation that was largely cured by plugs and injector cleaning though he did other things too on the way to solving the problem. They all were really looking foul and his hatchback jumped back to normal.

    Was the profile of the trailer cars consistent with sitting on a lot for 6 months where gas would foul?
     
  6. kirill626

    kirill626 Junior Member

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    I did the alignment twice. The alignment technician runs away when he sees me, as he's tired of me and my requests :) I'm writing here on Prius Chat as I hope to find somebody local (in L.A. area) who could help me to run more tests...Like roll-out test for example. In the future course.
    I'm really loosing my mind trying to solve this puzzle... after each drive I'm running around the car with IR thermometer and measuring the brakes temperature, wheel bearings temperature...
    My car feels like it has a small trailer attached. It's hard for the car to drive... but at the same time it rolls seemingly OK in neutral. There is some kind of contradiction in this.
    Here is the main problem again: it feels like MG2 struggles and fails to keep the car rolling at constant speed without the ICE. Some Prius wagon that I tested had no problem keeping say 35-40 mph or so in city traffic with ICE shut down (is it called "glide" ?) . It's this mode that allows Prius to get the outstanding city gas mileage. My Prius though (and some other ones that I test-drove, that feel like they have a "trailer" attached) struggle to keep the speed on battery alone.
    I have checked and re-checked every possible reason many times; the Hybrid System turns the ICE off and tries to drive using MG2 only, but is unable to keep up and either the speed decreases, or computer turns the ICE back on. This is I think where the problem is. I have seen at least 3-4 Prius wagon with the same puzzle plus the one I own today.
    The engine on my Prius wagon is not fresh but works well. New intake (last generation), EGR clean 100%, I have not tested the injectors yet but will check soon. OEM 17 rims and all 4 new 215/50ZR17 Continental ExtremeContact DW Max Performance Summer Tire's (51psi max, only 21lbs and 818 RPM)
    [​IMG]
     
    #26 kirill626, Apr 4, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    maybe drop in to avi's automotive for a little discussion.
     
  8. Chazz8

    Chazz8 Gadget Lover

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    The tires you are running Kirill626 are not low rolling resistance (LRR) tires, so there is some drag to slow you down.

    I have a 3 year average of 42 MPG (little lower in winter, little higher in summer) on fuelly and I find it difficult to maintain 35 - 40 MPH without the ICE running. I look for the right place (level or down slope) and the right time (plenty of time, warm engine, and no traffic to irritate) to glide in EV mode. I tell my prius v to do this by letting off the gas pedal for a split second and easing back on the gas pedal keeping it under the half tick mark on power guage (white bars for regen on bottom and red bar for power = non Eco on top). I also try to keep the power guage in the lower half below the half tick mark. I found that it drains the traction battery too fast when I keep the power guage right at/under the half tick mark and the ICE comes on to help recharger it. Doing all this, I find it difficult to maintain speed when in an EV glide with no ICE. So I slow down, pick a slight uphill slope to drive under load with power guage just under red Power tick and speed up while looking for my next glide opportunity.

    I guess my point is that maximizing EV usage does not maximize efficiency in a prius hybrid. It's all about the synergy.
     
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  9. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    You seem from the picture to have mud guards installed and those can cost some small efficiency in air management. No more than 1/2 a MPG though.

    You spoke earlier of lower tire pressures than many of our cars run at, that is worth maybe 2 MPG. On the good cars, did you ever check the tire pressures? Is it possible that someone previously had used higher on those cars than the low thirties the dealers like to use. Then you later said 40 PSI. What are you running?

    You are running wider tires on heavier rims with your model five than some of us are running with our stock 16" wheels on lower models. That is worth a MPG or two. Were all your samples a v five?

    You are not running LRR tires, again another MPG or two.

    You are in a Prius station wagon, heavier/bigger than a hatchback. The usual difference is ~8 to 10 MPG. I hope you are comparing v to v and not v to expected hatchback MPGs. I think your expectation of 45 from a v with "normal" driving is overly optimistic. Go over to fuelly and, understanding that those who post are probably the ones most likely to be very mileage conscious and using some hybrid driving techniques, see what real people are getting. 70 Prius v's average 42 MPG. There are some few who report similar MPG, one I note was saying 5% city use. If he spent all his time at 75MPH plus ....
     
  10. kirill626

    kirill626 Junior Member

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    Thank you for your comments. I am very busy this weekend and I won't be able to respond until Monday but i will definitely has something to say about it.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    me too!(y) okay, i'm not that busy.(n)
     
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  12. kirill626

    kirill626 Junior Member

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    Thank you very much for all your comments and answers. I am glad to comment on them.
    Chazz8
    Yes, I have installed not a LRR but as I mentioned before I did try to install LRR from the good running Prius wagon. But didn’t get the same performance. And didn’t feel any difference. LOL, Not to mention that I do believe in a magic performance of tires with LRR but only if you using them for long period of time and with the speeds higher than the city speed. Before 40 mph it’s a barely minimum difference, I somewhere agree that this is the a good suggestion but not really in my case.
    Chazz8 did write what I expected to get from some of you. He summarized what we are discussing here. Yes, this is the ‘Trailer’. Good Prius wagon running in the city on EV very steady and consistent. 16 or 17 rims all the same. We should be asking questions to those who has a Prius wagon in the range of 45-50 mpg. They are driving in the city without any difficulties on EV. But “trailer” won’t do this no matter what you do. YES, if you can drive very carefully you probably may get 42MPG. And I did it myself. But again, ask people with the good Prius wagon if they try and even think about mpg while they are driving? No, Prius wagon with good performance let you drive, enjoy the car and get very high mpg. Not to mention, that I didn’t find the car in the middle. It either ‘trailer’ or a good Prius v (lowercase v for the prius v wagon) wagon.

    mikefocke
    Thank you for your comment about ‘mud guards’. Of course they impact the mpg but not on speeds below 40 (the ones we are discussing here). And again their impact is fairly low. One more time about tires. I have a regular disk size (17) and tires. I increased tire pressure to maximum of 53 psi. But it didn’t do anything. On the other hand, one of the good Prius purchased by me with the same disc size 17 and OEM tire pressure 33 front and 32 rear drove amazing on EV and gave me 45-50 mpg.

    Don’t forget that we are driving Prius station wagon, heavier/bigger than a hatchback. The usual difference is ~8 to 10 MPG. I hope you are comparing v to v and not v to expected from hatchback MPGs. I think your expectation of 45 from a v with "normal" driving is overly optimistic. Go over to fuelly and, understanding that those who post are probably the ones most likely to be very mileage conscious and using some hybrid driving techniques. See what real people are getting. 70mph Prius v's average 42 MPG. There are some few who report similar mpg, one I note was saying 5% city use. If he spent all his time at 75MPH plus ....

    Prius v (lowercase v for the prius v wagon) wagon is sharing 100% same engine with basic Prius. Yes. But transmission is different. MG1 and MG2 the same. Good Prius wagon can also drive perfectly as a basic Prius. By using different gear ratio engineers reached similar performance in terms of speed and starting but of course lost some mpg. I am comparing just a wagons and I know what I am talking about. Look again at the photo the one posted with my first post. There are 48.8 mpg for the good Prius if the car was not too much driven on freeways and this is normal! This was an average for 2,533 miles!

    Anyway, I have received what I was asking for. I understood that some of you just drive and think that this is how Prius should perform. With the tons of difficulties and headaches if you are getting just about 40-42 or less mpg in the city then YOU ARE driving a ‘trailer’:)

    I will continue to try finding reasons and causes. And if I find and I can assure that i well since I am planning to buy another good Prius. Then I will definitely share it and let you know the secret.

    Good luck to all of you!
     
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  13. alekska

    alekska Active Member

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    Thanks! And please come back with your progress and discoveries. It was an interesting conversation and your feedback is appreciated!

    Alex
     
  14. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I'm sure we would all benefit from learning if you find anything.

    Good luck.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    especially those of us who are doing better than epa and have never encountered anything trailer like. unless actually pulling one.:)
     
  16. kithmo

    kithmo Couch Potato

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    Food for thought:
    I noticed all the cars were second hand with various mileages and wondered if these "trailer" Priuses exist from new.
    My theory is that the difference in performance is related to the way the cars were run in from new. This is backed up by the 60K mile one the OP had was a good one (well run in).
    I reckon a new car needs to be driven fairly gently for a few hundred miles then briskly for a few thousand to loosen the engine up. The first oil needs to be left for the full 10K miles otherwise if it's changed too early the pistons won't bed in and the bores will glaze, making the engine tight and possibly increase oil consumption.
    In my experience most engines take 20-30K to loosen up and the Prius ICE, being used less than a conventional car, could take longer.
     
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that is a very interesting theory, especially about not changing the oil early. can you elaborate on why fresh oil prevents 'bedding in'? all along, i've done my first change early to eliminate any break in contaminants.
     
  18. kithmo

    kithmo Couch Potato

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    The "break in contaminants" wear the bores and piston rings a little, which beds them in, creating a better seal and a looser engine. Fresh oil gets rid of the contaminants too early and the engine doesn't wear in enough which can cause excessive oil consumption.
     
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  19. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    And the theory of "change your oil late" on the first oil change is backed by what scientific study?

    I changed mine at 1k and 5k and 10k. I get normal EPA MPG. Sample size one.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    thanks, how did it change when toyota went from dino to syn, and 5k to 10k?