Prius Battery Replacement (GenII) Like you've never seen - NEW Cylindrical Cells

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by 2k1Toaster, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

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    An interesting design. From my own calculations these modules look like they'll have 50-80% more surface area to dissipate heat compared to Toyota's prismatic module. The cylindrical design might allow a more even dissipation as well.

    Do these cells have relief valves for exhausting hydrogen gas? What are the temperature ratings and pressure ratings of the cells?
     
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  2. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

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    I may not have expressed myself as clearly as I imagined - the heat that I'm referring to is due to the car simply sitting in the sun somewhere hot (e.g. Phoenix during the recent heat wave) since simple exposure to heat (and operation after said exposure) is hard on batteries. After sitting parked in the sun for a few hours, I'd imagine both of the batteries would both end up the same temperature (basically coming up to the ambient temperature in the car) since there's really no active temperature management when the car is off (can the battery cooling fan run when the car is off? I'm not sure on this). The early Leaf batteries and their relatively precipitous range loss in hot climates might be a good example here.

    While I understand that engineers are somewhat protective of their projects, I am a little surprised by your defensiveness on the fact that the millions of stock batteries in existing Priuses provide some confidence. I agree that research and initial engineering is critical in developing any product, however I have a really hard time so easily dismissing the very real data that these packs "in the wild" provide as part of a larger development cycle (and I'd be shocked if Toyota were not tracking the performance/longevity of these vital components in service).
     
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  3. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Correct. "Heat soaking" means they will come up to the same temperature eventually, which would be inside the car temperature, usually above ambient. And that is what lab oven baking does. And no the fan does not run when off, although I have seen people modify it to run for some minutes after off, but no that's not normal. Baking is also referred to as "accelerated aging" due to the relationship between higher temperature and effective lifetime elapsed.

    Just trying to answer all questions. I am not trying to be overly defensive. From my point of view, I have spent a long time looking at the problem, analyzing what solutions would work and what the pros/cons are for each aspect. All this minutia learned over time concluded in a specific project designed a specific way. I do not expect anyone else to have this same knowledge by reading a couple posts on the internet. That's why I am trying to impart the knowledge as straightforwards as possible.

    I have also repeatedly stated that I *agree* that having billions of miles of proven driving on the Toyota packs is a great thing. All I am saying is that if you go only off of tested real world results, you will never be using a new product. Someone has to go first. I have gone first. A couple factory owners have gone second/third. I am asking for guinea pigs for the next few units and in exchange for being a test subject they get a substantial discount on the price.

    Toyota does not monitor the pack extensively in any of the Prii models. They only monitor service rates as any other part. If a part starts to be ordered for replacement more than the algorithms say is normal, then they pay attention. This is different than say Nissan who made an annual battery check part of the required service. The battery check did nothing for the user, but uploaded all your cars driving patterns, charging patterns, and battery data to Nissan HQ for analysis.

    My guess is that Toyota would do it my way if they could take today's NiMH technology back to the early 1990's and use it. I suggest this because the first prototypes that never made it to market and were only showcased in motor shows used cylindrical cells. Additionally if they could take *ALL* technology back to the early 1990's they'd skip NiMH altogether and go to Lithium which is exactly what they are doing today using today's technology. Lithium is the way of the future and Toyota is confident they can get the same reliability numbers out of it with their use models. But it makes no sense for them to put resources into designing a new pack using new technology as a service only part, that's not their game. The 2004 Prius will never get a stock Toyota Lithium pack, it just isn't going to happen. It is also not going to get a design change.
     
  4. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I think it's great 2K1!

    What could possibly be greener for the planet than giving a Gen2 Prius a second life? That saves a lot of resources since you do not have rebuild the whole vehicle.

    I wish we knew more about Gen2 Prius life data, how many % batts died for each model year etc.
    How many Prii got back on the road, how many junked, how many used Prii/exported

    Wonder if 3ProngPaul is still around...he might interested.
     
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  5. tvpierce

    tvpierce Senior Member

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    Very cool project. Great to see innovation in this area.

    Bravo!
     
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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    @3prongpaul was just here recently.
     
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  7. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    I sent him a message through other channels to be sure he saw what 2K1Toaster has put together.
    An upgraded version of the Ceba setup.
     
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  8. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    You just aren't getting it.
    It is the whole overall tone of the post.

    I don't remember seeing you post ANYTHING on here for a long time......maybe EVER.
    Note that I said I don't remember you, not that you weren't active at some time in the past.

    The first post from you that I notice is a lengthy "sales pitch".

    I've been around for a LOT of years and the overall tone of your post struck me as sounding like somebody hawking snake oil........kind of like "Too good to be true."

    Since others on here seem convinced that you are 100% legit, I'm sorry that I made any comment at all.
     
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  9. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Well, over 4k posts and if you click on anyone's profile you can see "all content by user" which are all the posts ever. I am on Priuschat everyday, it's one of my few bookmarks, and post when a topic that is a fit for me appears. I try not to just post for the sake of posting. I read a lot.

    I also have many other vehicles including a Nissan Leaf so I'm active in pure EV forums. Also active on both the Yahoo Group Prius groups, the normal group and the PTS group which is the technical list.

    I don't expect you to know my history, but I do find it odd that with all that information public you'd find me to be a scammer. I would have to have a VERY long game plan to lurk for 7 years, make 4000 posts, and then try to scam everyone. But I suppose it is possible.

    Thankyou for your input, and perhaps I will put a little bio info in the first post as you're the second to mention it.
     
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  10. BK310CH

    BK310CH New Member

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    Interesting.

    YOU have developed them?

    I know it's been posted before, but I just have to repeat it. It's amazing how they look EXACTLY the same in every way... right down to the fabricated pieces and the spot welds.



    and here...

    Ceba New Design Product For Prius Gen.2 & Gen.3 - Buy Car Battery For Prius Product on Alibaba.com

    You are claiming invention 5+ months later, or does you buying the guts and offering them for sale as a kit count as "development"?

    And you're fighting off these bits with claims that yours is somehow different.

    If you have such faith in these, why are you charging 80% of Toyota list yet offering no warranty? Even Toyota gives you a warranty.

    There are multiple reasons Toyota went with prismatic modules. Reliability of the Gen0 Prius in Japan using PANASONIC "D" cells was poor. This has also been evidenced by the failure rates of Honda IMA "D" cell battery packs presented here:

    Consumer Reports Blasts Honda Civic Hybrid Reliability » AutoGuide.com News

    2015 Subaru Outback and Legacy | Video Review - Consumer Reports

    Note that the above failure rates are for Panasonic and Sanyo produced cells. Not some no-name (Ceba/EnnoPro) Chinese company.

    Here are some facts associated with claims made by the OP:
    1. New Toyota packs rarely sit on shelves for more than a few months unless you're in a remote location.
    2. The typical failure mode of a Prius pack is a single cell.
    3. Two six cell subpacks are no more prone to failure than 1 12 cell subpack, BUT
    4. More cells per subpack means that more cells must be replaced when ONE cell fails. With prismatic, you replace 6. With the proposed, you replace 12 (note the higher failure rate of the 06+ Civic vs. 03-05 Civic referenced above - 12 cell vs. 6 cell subpacks).
    5. Prismatic modules have a high surface area to volume ratio.
    6. Prismatic modules have a thin cross-sectional area meaning heat produced in the center has less distance to travel to the heat sink (air).
    7. Prismatic module cells have a very large portion of their surface area directly exposed to airflow.
    8. Per NASA: Cylinders have poor aerodynamics, and they create extremely turbulent airflow (please scroll down to the "flow past a cylinder" portion). Drag of a Sphere. Tesla uses cylindrical cylinders because that's what was available at the time, 18650 cells.
    9. Per the above, it is nearly impossible to get uniform flow across the entire surface of a cylinder unless the flow is very slow - uneven cooling.
    10. Stacked cylinders will flow worse than single cylinders.
    11. Cylindrical cells have much thicker cross sectional area (1.5-2X). Thus, heat produced in the center has MORE distance to travel to the heat sink (air).
    12. Honda packs are notorious for cooling issues, and they have well spaced subpacks. Some models are staggered to improve airflow (still doesn't help per the failure data). Honda fans are dramatically more powerful than Prius fans requiring 9A/12V to run at full blast and are like a leaf blower. Prius fans will run full speed at 2A/12V.
    13. Honda pack temperature readings are about 5-10°C lower when the car begins to cool the pack aggressively. This is because the core temperature is much higher than prismatic modules, and the cooling is less effective.
    14. The cylindrical Prius pack has closely spaced cylinders vertically and loosely spaced cylinders horizontally, this dramatically affects the airflow, and none of it is positive.
    15. The battery management system is designed for prismatic modules of approximately 0.75" thickness with a large plenum and restricted exit for high velocity airflow.
    16. Given the poor airflow of cylinders and the unmodified cooling system (same computer, same temp harness), the cylindrical cells will operate at higher temperatures than prismatic modules - particularly at their centers, and the cooling system will not be as effective.
    17. Lastly, prismatic modules share a common air space with six cells. During operation, the electrolyte exists in part as a vapor and can transfer from one cell to others in small amounts based on their saturation levels. This has been one of the key factors in the high reliability of the prismatic module over cylindrical cells - it behaves like 28 isolated cells more than it behaves like 168 isolated cells. When an isolated cylindrical cell vents, it's has lost a small amount of capacity and increased its internal resistance permanently.
    There is no objective evidence that suggests the cylindrical option is in any way superior to the prismatic modules.

    Given the compromised cooling system, it's likely their failure rate will be higher than Honda.

    Given that they are Chinese made cells vs. Panasonic or Sanyo, their failure rate will likely be higher than Honda.

    Cylindrical cell vs. prismatic cell data shows the cylindrical cells have a higher failure rate (Honda vs. Toyota).

    Data showing failure rates of 12 cell subpacks vs. 6 cell subpacks shows a higher failure rate in 12 cell subpacks (Honda vs. Honda).

    Note again that all data presented is for Panasonic and Sanyo produced cells - NOT Chinese CEBA/EnnoPro. Japan generally has a better reputation for quality, no?

    And to whittle it down to TL DR:
    12 cell subpacks fail more often than 6 cell subpacks.
    Cylindrical cells fail more often then prismatic cells.
    Cylindrical cells installed in a system designed for prismatic modules will run hotter.

    All cons.

    No pros.

    Good luck.
     
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  11. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Yes... Already stated. Why would you start with a blank slate when the product that exists is close and you can buy from the manufacturer?

    The plastic channels are different. Again, as already stated, a CEBA pack was purchased originally for testing. 3Ah per module was recorded, not 6.5Ah. The plastic pieces had little room for everything and did not fit properly all the time. Close, but no cigar. So the plastic pieces are custom injected with a different material plastic and using old moulds that were refinished larger in spots, the plastic is different. Very simple process.

    As for the cells, they come from one of my many contacts in China. Just because it is made in China, doesn't mean the quality is poor. Most things are made in China and range from crap to excellent. You get what you pay for. I routinely make custom battery packs for various products, so naturally I went to one of them to make me a custom battery pack that fits the specifications. Send a picture and data, it gets built. Very easy.

    Because the cell cost is high (new and high quality cells) plus freight charges plus tooling charges plus profit. Seems rather simple. And if you offer a warranty you need to be bonded and insured or else it is useless anyways. That only increases the price. I have many businesses, like with tax codes, and different products have different needs. Right now these are hobbiest grade. If you buy cells off eBay with a "1 year warranty" good luck ever collecting that.

    One does not cause the other. Again as already stated, 1990's NiMH tech was not up to the task. Today's cells have lots of learning inbetween. You obviously know something about batteries, or pretend to, so you should know this.

    Real world testing refutes what you are saying. Not to mention this has nothing to do with Honda packs. If you actually understand Honda's problem it was depth of discharge related. Not cell architecture related. The shape of the Toyota cells does offer cooling by design, but again real world testing shows that these cells stay cooler over all the ranges of driving. And like you said, that only works when the fan is on. How often do you ever hear the fan? Never unless it is already too hot.

    I appreciate your input, but you are factually incorrect in many of your claims against mine.
     
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  12. BK310CH

    BK310CH New Member

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    Can't you just rely on your reputation on this site? "I'm a good guy, and everybody here knows me. If it fails inside of 12 months, I'll give you your money back if you ship the guts back to me. I promise." Heck... I think you would welcome that scenario, as you would acquire reliability data.

    But no... "$2000 for my Chinese knock-off with no warranty."

    17 points dismissed with a feeble "real world testing refutes... blah blah blah"? You should probably consider getting specific because they are simple facts, and you really should strive for credibility when you're hawking something with so many obvious strikes against it.

    Post your real world testing so you can back up some of your claims. I've scrolled back through the whole thread, and I don't see any hard data. An unsubstantiated claim of "real world testing" is meaningless.

    Carl Sagan popularized it... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." No evidence has been provided... let alone anything extraordinary... more like.

    Claim: "Better than the technology in cars with 300K miles on them and 13+ years of history".
    Evidence: "Trust me. I'm working with the Chinese on this. They're cool. BTW... look at my post count."

    If your real world testing was so promising, I can't believe you aren't showering us with it...

    Concerning Honda, depth of discharge was only one factor in the design, and this was patched in the 06-11 civics. Their batteries still drop like flies. While the battery management allows for down to 20% this is rarely seen and the car aggressively tries to maintain > 50% SoC. At least according to to Peter Perkin's OBDIIC&C on my Insight.

    I question your understanding of the Prius cooling system. The fan is on nearly any time the battery is over about 90°F at least according to my Torque Pro with the Prius PIDs and lots of recorded drives. It doesn't take much to get a battery to 90°F and higher.

    Where is your comparative drive data? Where is your evaluation data after X months/years/miles? Are you alleging that your bench testing accounts for all the varied conditions in various regions? What about the regions where temps are over 100°F for weeks/months at a time? Where is your reliability data?

    With all due respect, put up or shut up. Even your post count can't offset your lack of credibility in this matter.
     
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  13. BK310CH

    BK310CH New Member

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    Just in case I missed something, I went back over your original post. Rather than substance, it's all unsubstantiated claims with a clear marketing slant. Claim after claim about unsubstantiated superiority.

    Battery acid on your case? What? You know that these don't contain acid right?

    I saw you clarified later but really... "cells" 28 "cells" vs. 14 "cells"?

    What I find most interesting is with all your efforts to obfuscate the origin of these cells... That first letter could certainly be a "C".

    upload_2017-7-20_20-23-25.png

    Those last two letters sure look like "BA":

    upload_2017-7-20_20-24-54.png

    Who doesn't make these again? CEBA, right? "C BA DEFINITELY DOESN'T MAKE THESE. SOMEBODY ELSE DOES! SERIOUSLY. I PROMISE."

    Good job. One out of four ain't bad.

    Next you'll be telling us that these are stock photos, and somebody else tried to pixel out the origin, right? CEBA doesn't make YOUR sticks... yours are better... YOU developed them. Totes.
     
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  14. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Obsufacted for copyright reasons. Like I said, when you say "make them like this" they do... That's why you can buy a million Apple USB Chargers with the same exact serial number...

    Have you ever done business in China?

    Like I said, I started with the CEBA pack... What don't you understand about this?
     
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  15. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    That's actually very similar to what the plan was. But that is VERY DIFFERENT than a warranty. A warranty is a legal word with a legal meaning. Kind of like how Toyota's warranty expires at a certain date yet they do "goodwill" outside of that and offer free or discounted repairs. I only do warranties on a few of my products installed in commercial spaces that require them for commercial insurance requirements. Otherwise it is basically no-warranty which does not mean no support.

    In the few product death's I have had, I have replaced them all for free even when it was clearly user abuse (they owned up to it). Again, I've only said certain things but that doesn't mean I have said I won't do everything else not mentioned.

    Knockoff I suppose. But some knockoffs like this are better than the original. Chinese yes. But that in itself has nothing to do with anything. China is a world power house that does most of the manufacturing. I get almost all my plastic, metal, electronics and even paper like user manuals and packaging in China.

    It's like arguing with climate science deniers, it is pointless.

    Correct no data has been posted. That's not how businesses work! A datasheet for an unreleased product should never leave the company nor should any data within it until public release of the product and a full review. Preliminary data can be shared under NDA type situations.

    When a new engine comes out, do you go down to the dealership and ask for all their data on the tests behind it? No, and they won't give it to you. How do I know this? Because I am the recipient of some confidential data from some major auto manufacturers. And they don't give you anything outside of the very specific scope you asked for or need. 2 pages of a 100 page schematic or a 100 page datasheet with 1 graph visible and everything else blanked out. That's the way things work.

    It's very obvious to me that you are coming at this from a hobbiest perspective. 1 person supplying information for the good of everyone in an open soruce style fashion. To be very clear, that's not what is going on here. I am in this for profit as well as community benefit. That means doing things more business like. I have a longstanding reputation here and 7 years of activity so I wanted to showcase some early results and ask for "beta testers" from the same community. Final product will be very different than pictured aesthetically for this EXACT reason. People are making comparisons where there shouldn't be. And by continuing this FUD after I have said "no, that's empirically incorrect" does nothing.

    I have been very clear that I have tested the CEBA system years ago. I was impressed with the idea, disappointed in the execution. Logged that into my brain. When my pack started showing signs of failure I decided that I would really like to get a better than stock battery. So that's what I set out to do. Used the old CEBA pack as a starting point. Used them as a contact point for injection mould samples and modifications. Used my guys for batteries. And the end result, is spectacular.

    If I wanted to just repair my pack, I could have done it for almost no money. If I wanted to use the CEBA pack I could have used the one I purchased long ago with nowhere to put it. The goal of this project was met and for minimal cost. It is one of the cheapest custom projects I've done in a while. Most are in the $200K USD to $500K USD range to get up and running.

    In all the packs I have seen in the past few years, everyone is using cylindrical cells. YOU won't see this for another 5-8 years because what I am looking at is for the MY2022 and beyond vehicles from very large manufacturers. And no you won't see pictures or data because it is all under heavily scrutinized NDAs.

    At this stage, I kindly ask that you either accept what I am saying or leave this thread. I'd rather light a $40K cash pile on fire than continue with this uselessness. When the final product is released, I will gladly send you a copy of the data or you can even purchase a complete kit and do a full tear down analysis if you really want to.
     
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  16. BK310CH

    BK310CH New Member

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    Profit, yes. Community benefit, oh my goodness, no. Unless "community" is a nickname for your bank account or your LLC/corp. Then I would totally agree.

    You have made multiple unsubstantiated claims that just drip with marketing BS, incorrect terminology and just plan... wrongness. Silliness about acid in batteries, silliness about some benefit of a 12 cell subpack vs. 6 cell subpack.

    I have presented a wall of factual statements that all indicate your proposed configuration is disadvantaged in every way. You dismiss them with a wave of the hand as though they aren't factual. It is in fact you who is acting like the climate deniers... .Climate scientist: "here look at all this data supporting these conclusions/conditions", Denier: "no. that's wrong. I have other data I can't show you. Besides, it doesn't even warrant a response. Look, I have clean coal for you over here. You can eat it. It's healthy."

    Put up, or shut up. Give some sound reasoning instead of a bunch of marketing BS.

    I eagerly await either the bonfire or the data. Your choice. I predict a previously unforeseen/unspoken 3rd (or more?) option(s) will emerge... :)
     
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  17. BK310CH

    BK310CH New Member

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    On what do you base your calculations? It's late, and I'm tired, so I might have made an error... but...

    "D" cell exposed surface: 33.2mm dia x 61.5mm tall = 33.2*pi * 61.5 = 6415mm^2

    You don't get to count the ends because they're welded to each other.

    prismatic "cell" is 42.3mm wide. 105mm tall and 18mm thick.

    42.3*105*2 sides = 8820mm^2 + 1522.8 top and bottom = 10,322mm^2

    VOLUME of a "D" cell is 53240mm^3
    VOLUME of a prismatic cell is 79947mm^3 (most of the extra volume is the air space above each cell)

    So, for every cubic mm of volume, a D cells has 0.12mm^2 of surface area
    For every cubic mm of volume of a prismatic cell has 0.13mm^2 of surface area

    The prismatic cell has 8% more surface for its volume.

    Heat transfer can't be ignored. The core of a "D" cell is 16.2mm from the closest cooling surface.
    The core of a prismatic cell is 9mm from the closest cooing surface.

    Please refer to the linked NASA page for the airflow characteristics around a cylinder. See if you believe it is an improvement over flat surfaces that are directly aligned to the airflow. If you still think it's an improvement, don't forget to imagine 3 cylinders stacked on each other and how little of the cell surface will experience meaningful cooling airflow.

    Less surface area.
    Horrible airflow characteristics.
    Thick section thickness.

    None of those add to better cooling.
     
    #77 BK310CH, Jul 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  18. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    It seems to me the OP is pretty straightforward about what he is doing.

    Offering a different pack option with no warranty for folks.
    Basically he's saying, "Here is what I've done, and it's working. If anyone else wants to do it too, I will sell you the components."

    It ain't the cheapest option out there, but so what?
    Don't like it? Don't buy it.
    Or buy it, and report back here. Good or bad.

    He took an idea an improved on what was there.

    New batteries are expensive. Look around even on sites like alibaba, etc.

    Trying to provide just about any warranty on a battery product from China can be an exercise in futility.
    Since there isn't years of data on the product, the OP is being pretty transparent about that.
     
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  19. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Do you mind sharing your credentials?

    You have shared a number of statements that you claim are facts. You are equally responsible to put up or shut up.

    If you are at all interested in but one opinion, you are coming across as a raving loony with a big chip on his shoulder.

    A lone warrior swinging his scythe through the poppy field, if you will.

    I'm all for reasoned discussion and debate, but if this kind of ranting is the best you can do would you please stop?

    If you wouldn't mind just taking a chill pill, a deep breath and pause for a bit and really think about your approach.

    Thank you.
     
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  20. BK310CH

    BK310CH New Member

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    Niagara Falls
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    I
    Your comment concerning dealings with China are telling about quality and integrity of Chinese products.

    The OP isn't being transparent. He's making many marketing based claims of superiority without any substantiation where existing reliability data conflicts with his statements. These are dismissed with a wave of the hand - "trust me, look at my post count".

    Is this a case of a high post-counter defending another? It's clear that you skimmed my post. The vast majority of points that I made are either self-evident, or they are supported by readily available or provided data. Please re-read with an emphasis on objectivity and comprehension.
    1. Admitted partial speculation, but you can find accounts of people that have to wait a an extra day or two because the dealer doesn't have a pack in stock. Draw your own conclusion.
    2. Readily evident from a wealth of forum data. Single subpack replacement frequently restores function to a pack. Voltage readings on failed subpacks are typically in the vicinity of 1.2V lower than the rest - single cell failure.
    3. Supported by provided reliability data
    4. Self-evident fact.
    5. "High" is optimistic. "Higher" is more appropriate. Computations supplied in this thread.
    6. Data provided.
    7. Self-evident based on visual examination and understanding of the airflow in the pack.
    8. NASA link provided.
    9. Supported by NASA link provided.
    10. Conclusion based on data supplied. If airflow around a single cylinder is horrible, it's a logical conclusion that multiple cylinders stacked in the flow will not improve the flow. In fact, the upstream cells actually BLOCK a large portion of the downstream cylinders from air flow.
    11. Fact. Measurements provided.
    12. Web research yields supporting data.
    13. Personally observed data compared between the mentioned Torque Pro readings on my Prius and the OBDIIC&C readings on my Insight.
    14. Physical fact supported by OP's pictures. Airflow comments supported by linked NASA data.
    15. Self-evident fact.
    16. Conclusion based on previously supplied facts and supporting data.
    17. Self-evident facts and/or facts/conclusions based on supplied reliability data.
    Maybe I do come across as a loon. It's no more loony than the multiple unsubstantiated claims of superiority that is countered by all available data.

    There is no objective evidence that this configuration is more reliable than anything currently on the road. All existing data supports the opposite.

    If you pull out all of the BS speculative/unsubstantiated marketing claims, I would actually have no problem with this. It's an option. Take it or leave it, but multiple factual inaccuracies and claims of superiority made solely for increasing the fatness of the OP's wallet are bogus.

    My hope is that a reader reads my posts after they read the marketing material and can then make an informed choice.

    So loony.
     
    toymo and kenoarto like this.
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