Prius C outsells Volt, Nissan in 3 days

Radio report this morning said overall hybrid sales are now down to 2% of the US market. Folks are driving less and/or buying more fuel efficient non-hybrids.

What's Making Americans Less Thirsty For Gasoline? : NPR

 

Right, the states with cleaner grid will have lower carbon footprint (190 vs 222 in NY) than Prius c. However, the price of electricity I pay in NY is double the national average.

At the rate Volt uses electricity and gas at $4 per gallon, 50 MPG Prius cost less to operate than Volt running on electricity. The tie point is at $4.5 assuming the price of electricity doesn't go up as well.

At the rate Prius PHV consume electricity makes sense in NY. Combine that with 50 MPG clean gas engine plus NY Clean Pass HOV access, Prius PHV is a winner. Volt does not qualify for the Clean Pass here in NY.

 

3.16% in Feb 2012.

February 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars

 

What always strikes me as beng "out of wack" is the formula for determining how smog free an HEV/EV/PHEV really is. The things that don't seem to enter the expert's formulas are;
1- A substantial percentage of the folks who can afford these more expensive vehicles are more likely to have PV solar, which offsets pollution of even high coal use states.
2- The states that make more dirty electricity, also make that dirty electricity that in turn, runs the refinery that makes the dirty gas ... in effect, that makes gas double dirty.
3- Carbon emissions get fought over every day as to whether mankind's carbon release even makes a difference. Reduce all the other crap (particulate, decreased supply, etc), and carbon usually drops too. Yet the focus still stays on carbon.

My eyes start to glaze over.


.

 

Are you using day rates? time-of-day use rates? EV rates? Since most people charge at night, they can take advantage of much lower rates. My day rate is 16c but my off-pek is .05.

The updated volt does qualify for Clean Pass. (see https://www.dot.ny.gov/programs/clean-pass)

[quote[
UPDATE (February 22, 2012):
The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation has recently added the following vehicle model to the eligibility list:

2012 Chevrolet Volt with E, F, G, or H in the 5th position of the VIN
The New York State Department of Motor Vehicles is currently issuing stickers for this vehicle.

Please note that not all 2012 Chevrolet Volt's will qualify for the program, only the vehicles noted above.
[/quote]

 

Totally agree. Carbon is not the biggest issue, I was just responding to a particular post. In your things they miss you did not include the 2 things I consider the most important

4) They ignore the miles on the plug, and only measure smog emissions with the engine running "in worst case mode". Its the primary reason that the volt was not SULEV when launched, because they did not use the CD range as part of the "miles". If I'm at 80% EV, there are 0 car emissions 80% of the time..

5) Cleaning up the grid is easier and already happening. Easier to clean up a few plants than 100000s or millions of cars. The car, once purchased, never gets cleaner. Over time, the EV does.

 

On average only 0.1 - 0.2 kWh of grid electricity is used for each gallon of gasoline during refining so that amounts to 0.0 - 0.4 pounds of CO2 per gallon of refined gas depending on whether the electricity was generated from a carbon-free source like hydro or from 100% coal (or around 0.2 pounds from U.S. average electricity presumably used in GREET).

The added CO2 emissions would make up only a tiny fraction of the total GREET estimate of a bit over 24 pounds of CO2 emission from burning a gallon of gasoline -- not quite "double dirty" although that is a nice rhetorical flourish.

 

Actually its not the use of the electricity, its the sources. Very high coal country, as as the rocky and western mid-west, also tends to get its gas from refined tar-sands. They are among the worst with some claiming 3x more CO2 to produce them, and more than 20% higher CO2 wells-to-wheels. (see http://www.theecologist.org/investi...ave_greens_got_it_wrong_about_tar_sands.html_

Another report was a little softer on the impact.. only 5-15% higher CO2 wells to wheels.

So in states that are heavily coal and using tar sands, if its double depends on if you measure the production alone, or of you do wells to wheels.

 

+1

Remember there is a big contingent of spin doctors against phevs and bevs. Part of the argument since tailpipe emissions are much lower must be how expensive they are, how subsidized they are, and how they don't really lower co2. Most of these same people really don't care about global warming, but focus their arguments there because the target market for these vehicles do. It is a dishonest attempt to shift focus.

This isn't really that true. Most of refining uses cleaner electricity and not all that much of it. But those that oppose plug ins like to use dirtier sources of electricity than these will actually use.

Yep. But if you want to oppose the solutions, you need to baffle with bs, and hide whats really going on.

:focus:

ipads vastly outsold the prius c:rockon:

The prius c produces very low unheathy pollution and is affordable. It consumes no less oil than the prius though. Prius uses a lot more oil than a leaf Lets not confuse issues.

I'm sure the prius c will be a good seller.

 

Looks like they updated it since the last time I checked. It is great to see GM also bringing eAT-PZEV Volt to NY.

Regarding the electricity rate, I only see one rate in my bill.

 

Just to add a further historical note, it's actually rated a bit better on the NEW EPA than the Classic was on the OLD EPA (CAFE numbers).

PEV + renewable electricity tariff.

Just sayin'.

 

K, should have said for the value.

 

WOTs impression of the press release

Demand for Toyota Prius c High, But Production is Limited - WOT on Motor Trend

but the confirmation of no us production

 

Prius c targets a younger segment of the urban population, many of whom may not live in a house with plug-in capabilities. Think apartment buildings, dormitories, etc.

 

completely agree, which makes it rather transparently misleading of toyota to compare such different cars.

 

I don't think it is misleading at all. Although one is a plug-in and the other isn't, these cars are in the same market segment and, naturally, compete for the same purchaser's eco-car dollars.

The absurd comparisons are where people whine that you may as well compare the c to the F150. Those vehicles are not aimed at the same customers and are not suited to the same tasks.

 

The are quite different segments. One is moving the price of an established technology - hybrid - to a lower price point and different demographic. Zen seems to be researching this this demographic for his class. The other comparable toyota new car trying to do a like transition is the IQ - which is a mini type car - which WOT properly identified as a car that also was outsold for last month by 3 days of prius c sales. Which makes them and I ask, how about adding some north american manufacturing for the prius c, and lets see how high demand really is.

Now the leaf and volt are being sold in a niche for early adopters, quite a different market place where we would expect much lower sales. Toyota also sold a plug in like these other two at the same time as the prius c. The phv is at a lower price point than the volt, and on an established platform, but also must get these early adopters. Those are the numbers that they should be comparing.

Ah, but aren't they equally absurd. How can you not see that? We have a new one in this thread the ipad. Much more popular.

 

I think the comparison is both misleading and revealing.

Clearly the two target segments are different, thus the comparison is somewhat unfair.

On the other hand, the numbers show that Toyota has made the correct business decision with the c. The bottom line is they will get returns on their investment much faster. That in turn can help sustain expensive and longer term projects such as EV etc. where market size is still too small to make a profit.

 

If the plug-ins did not exist, what car(s) would these buyers drive ?

 

+1

prius c sales show what a lot of us thought, a premium b-segment car will sell in america The company gets to leverage the r&d they put in the prius and b-segment manufacturing for cars like the yaris.

Toyota is also investing in phev - the prius phv, and evs, the RAV4 bev built along with tesla. These are the initial adopter cars. Investment for the future. The troubling thing is the comparison. It makes me think toyota would rather bring down competitors plug-ins than build their own. This feeds into a few marketing narratives.