Prius Killer - Hybrid Honda Fit?

Hey that's what I said ! ...from Forbes, today May 16 ......

General Motors does not seem to understand why Toyota Motor’s (nyse: TM - news - people ) Prius hybrid got everyone so excited. For starters, Prius is a distinct model--one that does not look like anything else on the road. Every Prius is a rolling billboard for Toyota and its hybrid technology. While every Prius customer may not get the stated mileage of 60/51 (city/highway) mpg, they should get somewhere in the mid 40s. Just imagine what we would think about GM if the Prius was a Chevrolet, and if GM has used the $1 billion it spent on its failed electric car, the EV-1, to develop a unique hybrid car.

 

My own two cents...

The Fit is a small car, smaller than the Prius. I had looked at the possibility of buying a HCH before getting the Prius, and although no dealer was able to show me one, I was able to see the gas powered Civic. Too small for me, thank you. So when I saw the Prius, it was the right size.

From an engineering point of view, I do not like the way Honda has the water pump/timing belt set up, nor do I like their belt-driven CVT. The PSD, on the other hand, is a much more robust device. So although the Civic might be more fun to drive, the idea was not to drive for fun but to drive to conserve. I love my Prius!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finally_got_one @ May 16 2006, 12:57 PM) [snapback]256356[/snapback]</div>

I would have to stay with the Prius. Both Honda and Toyota turn out high quality cars,but the main reason for me would be the added size of the Prius and it's unique look.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Goofa @ May 16 2006, 12:22 PM) [snapback]256424[/snapback]</div>

Speaking of unique. Have you seen the Fit's sitting configuration?

There is a configuration for lazyboy sitting postion.... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 16 2006, 12:11 PM) [snapback]256333[/snapback]</div>

As stated several times here already, it is a dead-end design. The system cannot be upgraded later to remain competitive. Why invest in something that will not yield a long-term benefit?

Not being able to utilize more electricity late is a good reason not to bother.

Again, another reason is the fact that it cannot simply & cheaply be installed in some vehicles... like a 4-cylinder Accord.

 

I owned an 2001 Civic and was going to trade it in on a HCH. After driving both there was no comparison for me. While the MPG is similar according to the greenhybrid database the HCH was actually less comfortable to drive than the Prius. The HCH may have handled and cornered better but the Prius package sold me.. more room. Also has anyone seen the interior colors of the 06 HCH... 2 choices white or blue blue denim it was just awful. I loved my 01 civic but the Prius just seemed better in all the important categories.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 16 2006, 04:03 PM) [snapback]256452[/snapback]</div>

Who cares about upgrades? It seems that it's managed to hold it's own against HSD every step of the way so far. I don't know what the future will bring, but I'm fairly sure in 10 years neither HSD or IMA will be cutting edge. In fact, in 10 years IMA and HSD may be extinct. Who knows.

 

"Why bother? The Civic turns in roughly the same mileage (according to the real world database at greenhybrid) with a much simpler and cheaper system."

Exactly! Why bother with IMA when it cannot become more in it's current state? The fact that it gets real-world MPG ALMOST as good as the Prius is wonderful. Plus the Honda fans love to drive it. Great.

HSD has more future than IMA, engineering wise, in each of their current states of development. No one has even breathed a word about plug-in Honda hybrids. I see the plug-in yet another step towards non-gas transport. Just my opinion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 16 2006, 04:29 PM) [snapback]256476[/snapback]</div>

I do. And so will many people when (not if) gas becomes $10/gallon and alternative energy sources/battery tech becomes mainstream. THAT is why the future car is here today, in the Prius. It's ready. Just look at all the companies doing the plug-in conversions.

Many people will want this next step-up. It won't come from Honda, but, damn, apparently their cars are more fun to drive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 16 2006, 03:29 PM) [snapback]256476[/snapback]</div>

Is that denial or misinformation?

Clearly it has *NOT* held it's own.

HSD has demonstrated that 4-wheel drive can be implemented with the greatest of ease, simply by running another wire from the invertor to a third electric motor. That isn't even remotely possible with IMA... or any "assist" hybrid, for that matter. Their passive system isn't designed to deliver that much electricity.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 16 2006, 05:33 PM) [snapback]256504[/snapback]</div>

Toyota and Subaru (which is working with Toyota) had to go 'back to the drawing board' because HSD proved to be too complex to adapt to Subaru's all wheel drive system. Keep in mind, the Subaru system is much more sophisticated than what Toyota uses...

Autoblog Link

 

You claimed IMA has been able to hold its own. I pointed out that was incorrect.

So, you attempted to divert focus rather than acknowledging that IMA wasn't designed to support 4-wheel drive.

Interesting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 16 2006, 06:01 PM) [snapback]256522[/snapback]</div>

I just provided a point to your counterpoint.

And I still claim IMA has held it's own. The Civic hybrid's real world mileage is 1 MPG below the Prius (according to the GH database).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 16 2006, 05:11 PM) [snapback]256526[/snapback]</div>

That is still not true, no many how many times you repeat it.

There is no competing 4-wheel model available now or even in the works using IMA.

How could a Fit using IMA ever compete entirely with a Matrix using HSD? One would offer a choice of front or both. The other front only. The lack of choice is not a long-term solution.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 16 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]256530[/snapback]</div>

Until a 4 wheel hybrid sells well, I don't think Honda has to worry.

 

Of all the questions I get with the Prius, the 2nd most oft asked (behind the plug it in one) is "does it come 4WD"?

I would think a car-based all-wheel drive HSD would do very well. I mean, Subaru may have the market share now, but all the Subaru owners I know lament the 20s MPG combined.

I'll go ahead and agree with John on this one...HSD can be made to be all-wheel drive much easier than the current IMA. Much more juice available to run a third MG.

I still hold out for Honda to make an HSD-killer, different design, etc. But the no-go word/rumor of an IMA CRV is making me wonder if Honda can...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 16 2006, 04:03 PM) [snapback]256452[/snapback]</div>

You are having delusions of grandeur. Although you may *think* you are the CEO and cheif of Engineering of Honda rolled into one, I'm afraid it isn't so.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 16 2006, 06:11 PM) [snapback]256526[/snapback]</div>

Also look at acceleration, responsiveness, size/room, emission, etc... HCH just fall short compare to Prius. You add all those up and it is quite a huge difference.

Honda fans kept saying IMA is much more simpler than HSD. How so? Having transmission as a seperate unit from ICE is simpler? For HSD, PSD, ICE and two MGs (forming e-CVT) are all integrated and mechinally simpler. From my point of view, Honda's IMA system is more complex but it is easier to understand because it is very similar to traditional set up. Is that why Honda fan say IMA is simplier? Is it because it is easier to understand how it works?

We have yet to see IMA in SUV and heavier cars. Honda themselves admitted that IMA is only suitable for small and light cars. Maybe Honda is on the right track with Fit Hybrid. They are trying to compete with HSD where IMA can (small cars).

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ May 16 2006, 06:52 PM) [snapback]256556[/snapback]</div>

They say a lot... but not with respect to solutions for the entire product-line.

What new emission & efficiency technology will the rear & four/all wheel drive vehicles offer? Honda has to have something to compete with. They cannot just abandon those markets. Yet the supporters simply dismiss that as a concern.

Even GM is beginning to show signs of concern... well, more like panic. Anywho, they are developing the two-mode "full" hybrid system for their large & powerful vehicles and an "assist" hybrid system for the others. Though slow to market and not a single solution, at least they have addressed their entire-product line. Toyota has done the same.

So what will happen as Toyota expands their HSD offerings? An increase in numbers & variety should attract more consumers their way. What will Honda do? Are they going to watch Accord sales be lost to Camry-Hybrid? With all this talk about the Fit-Hybrid, do supporters honestly believe Toyota won't ever offer a Matrix-Hybrid?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 16 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]256576[/snapback]</div>

I believe it is irrelevant. If and When a matrix-hybrid is offered, it will be considered by consumers.

I have thought for quite a while now that HSD circa 2004 - 6 is a better fit for larger cars, and IMA a better fit for smaller cars. I figure I have at least a 50% change of being right. And fwiw, I am not so sure that the drivetrain design that favors larger product is the obvious position of strength from a company's POV. The case of GM may be instructive in that regard. It certainly is not preferable from an enviro POV

Regarding AWD -- Americans may *think* they *need* it, but Europeans know better. As do you. As do I, after living in MA and Buffalo, NY.

In any event, my loyalties are up for sale to the auto manufacturer who can provide me the best, cheapest, most enviro sensitive car TODAY. Good Luck Toyota ! Good Luck Honda ! Good Luck EVERYBODY !

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 16 2006, 09:18 PM) [snapback]256585[/snapback]</div>

You probably got Honda washed (as in brainwash). HSD can be scaled up or down and adapt to a wide range of vehicles. Toyota does not sell impractically small hybrids just for the bragging rights like the Insight. However, there are concept cars that can achieve much better mpg than the Insight.

For example, Daihatsu UFE-II shown in 2003 (using THS instead of HSD?). This car claimed to get 141 mpg.
http://www.daihatsu.com/motorshow/tokyo03/ufe2/index.html

I think the reason you don't see small HSD cars yet is because the initial cost of expensive electronic components. As any electronic component, things can get much cheaper over time very quick. Since the next generation of HSD would cut the cost by half and high volume kicks in, I think by the end of next gen HSD (2010?), you'll start seeing ver small and efficient HSD cars.

Dennis