Prius Killer - Hybrid Honda Fit?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(neilb @ May 18 2006, 12:43 AM) [snapback]256877[/snapback]</div>

The above comment are completely wrong.
The MG2 never been stalled. It produces certain torque up to top speed.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/system.html

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 17 2006, 09:51 PM) [snapback]257343[/snapback]</div>

Well, if we're talking about the sun gear, then it does sometimes effectively stalls/locks-up to counter the torque from the engine (or to directly translate the engine's torque into the ring-gear instead of just spinning the sun-gear), and that's the MG1.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ May 18 2006, 05:11 PM) [snapback]257396[/snapback]</div>

They are talking about the ring gear (MG2) at high speed driving.
Ken@Japan

Edit:
Reviewed the original link...
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=887
There are argument between Chris Ellis and Jeremy Harris.
It looks Jeremy is right and Chris is wrong.

 

Looks like the Fit won't be killing anything. At least not as a hybrid until 2009.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/ho...nds_o.html#more

Read bit towards end of article.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ May 19 2006, 12:59 AM) [snapback]257507[/snapback]</div>

It says "Honda executives also quashed rumors of a hybridized version of the Fit".
My English skill is poor, but my understanding is opposite.
Ken@Japan

Edit:
Maybe, you're saying the new one in coming instead of Fit hybrid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 18 2006, 12:23 AM) [snapback]257330[/snapback]</div>

Here we go again, back to religion! :lol:

 

First, thanks ken1784 for finding the original discussion.

I completely agree with Roger Pham on this.

I disagree with the later reply from him when he agreed with Chris. The generator will only turn very fast during accleration to simulate low gear. More power gets split into electrical path (MG1) that powers MG2. While cruising at high speed, generator does not need to spin very fast as HSD simulates high gear.

Due to the lack of HSD PSD simulator, I am going to use THS simulator to make a point here. 04 Prius has different final drive ratio as 01 Prius so I may be off a little.
Go to: http://homepage.mac.com/inachan/prius/planet_e.html
Set the motor (MG2) to 4,100 RPM and engine to 3,100 RPM. This will achieve the speed to 113 km/h (70mph). You will see that generator (MG1) is at 500 RPM!! This shows that majority of the power is going through mechanical path while cruising on the highway at 70mph.

Since I own HSD Prius, on a flat surface and going at 70mph, I've notice engine RPM of about 2,500 RPM. BTW, I use dyno-scan (see my signature) to see my ICE RPM. Going uphills, engine RPM can be greater than 3,000 RPM depending on how much you press the accelerator. Going down hill, I've seen around 1,200 RPM. I was amazed because what type of transmission can allow a car to go at 70mph and the engine spinning only at 1,200 RPM (close to idling)?

Lets look at the acceleration situation. Lets say you were cruising at 70mph and then floored it. Keep the motor at 4,100 RPM and increase engine RPM to 4,500 RPM. You will see that generator will be spinning at 5,540 RPM. How much power is going to the generator now? 72% of 82 lbs-ft is 59 lbs-ft. So horsepower of MG1 at 5,540 RPM is 62 hp. That's assuming MG1 can generate 62 hp (46kw). So majority of the power is going through the electrical path.

The above situation is not possible simply because battery can only provide 21kw(28hp) [I know I am using HSD specs.. can't remember Classic spec] and MG2 is 50kw(67hp). The max power MG1 will need to provide is 39 hp. So, when you floor Prius at 70mph, about half the max engine (76hp) power goes to electric route. I believe this is what Roger Pham was really getting at. But then, all the cars are inefficient when accelerating... so to say this is a flaw in HSD design is invalid.

Above analysis may help us improve our mpg by minimizing usage of the electrical path through MG1. This was how the Pulse and Glide technique was used to achieve 110 mpg. It is not that the electrical path is bad because we need it to give us high torque which Atkinson cycle ICE lacks. Toyota can improve HSD efficiency by making better power inverter, which Camry HSD already has, to minimize the heat loss. Locking the MG1 will not do a damn thing. Acutally, it will just handicap the e-CVT responsiveness.

Note: People there are confused between MG1 and MG2. They were using them incorrectly.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ May 19 2006, 10:12 AM) [snapback]257785[/snapback]</div>

The 28% engine torque is used to drive MG1(sun gear), not 72%. (72% torque drives ring gear(wheel))
Thus, 28% of 82 lbs-ft is 23 lbs-ft. So horsepower of MG1 at 5,540 RPM is 24 hp.

Ken@Japan

 

Interesting original topic however, there might be no Fit hybrid after all...........excerpt from the USA Today yesterday.

"For now, though, it's sticking to what it knows best. Dashing speculation that Honda might create a hybrid version of its new Fit subcompact, the new Japanese-built hybrid will be an entirely different model.

The target price will be significantly lower than the Civic hybrid, Honda said.

With the renewed interest in small cars getting solid gas mileage, "Clearly, the automakers have decided there is a market for this," says Ron Cogan, publisher of Green Car Journal. "Cost is the obvious speed bump."

Although it was first with hybrids — with the two-seater Insight, which it will quit making in September — Honda has seen rival Toyota offer a broader array, from its hit Prius sedan to the new hybrid Camry and pricier so-called performance hybrids such as the Highlander and Lexus 400h SUVs.

"Hybrid technology works best in smaller vehicles," said John Mendel, Honda senior vice president. "

...maybe Honda will go after the successful Prius strategy of a hybrid version only model.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 17 2006, 06:12 PM) [snapback]257257[/snapback]</div>

The light braking that occurs when you lift your foot completely off the accelerator was designed in so the car would mimic an automatic transmission. Note that Toyota advertises the car as an automatic, even though the drivetrain is something else entirely. Techno-geeks like us, who want to manipulate the car for hyper-mpg are an insignificant part of the Prius market. The target buyer wants a car that's low-pollution, high-mileage, comfortable, flexible in terms of passenger and cargo space, and feels like a regular automatic so they don't have to learn new skills or understand technology. And the target buyer does not want to have to plug it in. Toyota spent a lot of money publicizing that you never plug it in. (I'm hoping Toyota will see that a lot of folks want to be able to plug it in and provide that in the next generation Prius.)

But the behavior of the accelerator pedal was designed so the car would act and feel like an automatic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Karnac @ May 19 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]258000[/snapback]</div>

However, I've seen a lot of talk over the last few months about the Fit hybrid, and I recall seeing a Honda press release that mentioned it (they pointed out how the Insight's hybrid system was a perfect "fit" for the Fit; pun intended.) Perhaps they are following the same strategy as Toyota- developing a wide array of hybrid vehicles. So maybe we'll see both a Fit hybrid and an entirely new vehicle from Honda.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 19 2006, 12:49 AM) [snapback]257892[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the correction. So, no more than 33% of ICE power gets to the electrical path. If the conversation loss is 20%, then overall loss is 33% of 20% which is 6.6%. Not bad at all.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Karnac @ May 19 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]258000[/snapback]</div>

With the demise of the purpose-built Insight, that was my take on it.

It reminds me somewhat of how General Motors overtook Ford in the early years of the automotive industry. Henry Ford stubbornly continued with technical improvements to the Model T while GM went with cyclical styling changes. The styling changes is what sold cars. Ironicially, Detroit continues to lengthen significant styling changes for their vehicles and, as a result, they hand more market share to Toyota and Honda year after year.

The same marketing technique may apply to hybrids, as well. People might be more inclined to pay the big hybrid premium if the vehicle has distinctive styling, offsetting the price difference between a similiar, non-hybrid model. I recently read where Ford is planning on doing exactly that with the Escape hybrid, i.e., giving it distinctive styling to differentiate it from the standard gas engine Escape.

It's difficult to justify paying around $4600 more for a hybrid Civic (or Escape) that is otherwise identical to the standard LX version. While the market is 'hot' for any hybrid right now, car buyers who do the math figure out that at current gasoline prices, it takes too long to recoup the investment and that the non-hybrid versions are a better buy.

Where Toyota was extremely clever is that they made the G2 Prius body and interior design completely different from anything that already existed in the Toyota model lineup. Instead of making a non-hybrid Prius, Toyota produced the Corolla-based Matrix. The Prius and Matrix are different enough that Matrix' sales don't put much of a dent into Prius' sales. Imagine how hybrid Prius sales would suffer if Toyota were to bring out a non-hybrid version for $4600 less that was powered by the Corolla/Matrix 1.8L engine.

Conventional automotive cost strategy would have been for Toyota to share as many parts as possible between the similiarly-sized Prius/Matrix/Corolla. In essence, the front ends and interiors would have been the same for all of them. Toyota would have simply had a Corolla model line comprised of an identical 4-door sedan and 5-door hatchback, with either (or both) having a significantly more expensive hybrid version. Fortunately, Toyota was smart enough and has enough resources to make three completely distinct car lines, and, consequently, it's paying off in big dividends for them.

Ironically, the way Toyota is operating is not that far removed from the original model pioneered by General Motors. Up until the eighties, all General Motors product lines shared 'some' components to keep costs down. Primarily, it was just the main chassis. All the GM car companies had their own separate body styles and drivetrains.

However, during Roger Smith's tenure as GM CEO in the eighties, this component sharing strategy was carried to the extreme and models became virtually identical, leaving buyers with very little reason to choose a more expensive General Motors car brand over another. The low point was the 1982-1985 Cadillac Cimarron, which was nothing more than a thinly-disguised Chevrolet Cavalier with a different grill, tail-lights and leather seats. No one was fooled and General Motors has been trying to recover from this ill-conceived plan for increasing profits to this day.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ May 19 2006, 11:32 AM) [snapback]258050[/snapback]</div>

Interesting market insight.
Times change, however. There is more consumer interest in the functional attributes of the car now than in the past, and I imagine that will accelerate as people think more about the price of fuel today and in the future.

As or GM having passed it's nadir of presuming its customer is an idiot and happily confirming it is true, the chevy avalanche/caddy escalade twinship suggests otherwise.

dealer: "and here we have the leather option, for a schweeet 10 grand"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Karnac @ May 19 2006, 08:53 AM) [snapback]258000[/snapback]</div>

By "hybrid technology", he was referring specifically to IMA. Just like I said many times, Honda is having problems making it available in larger vehicles. The 4-cylinder system physically doesn't easily fit in Accord and there is no effective way to use it in a 4-wheel drive vehicle. So indeed, what they designed is best for smaller vehicles. That isn't true for HSD, as Camry-Hybrid and Highlander-Hybrid are now proving.

His following statement about diesel confirmed how they were going to make their mid-to-large vehicles more efficient. Rather than using their "assist" hybrid technology, they are planning to use new clean-diesel engines instead. An answer to that product-line shortcoming has now been provided.

In other words, I was correct (and doubt that will get acknowledged). His recent comments validate my claim that IMA is not a solution for their entire product-line.

Of course, it still leaves them lacking an ultimate long-term plan to compete with the "full" hybrids that will offer a lot of electric-only driving.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 19 2006, 05:45 PM) [snapback]258268[/snapback]</div>

Where's the proof?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 19 2006, 05:45 PM) [snapback]258268[/snapback]</div>

Why couldn't they just do what Ford does? Hybrid for the front, and a normal driveshaft for the rear? And HSD doesn't work well for 4 wheel drive vehicles, otherwise Subaru and Toyota wouldn't be taking it back to the drawing board for use in such vehicles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 19 2006, 07:57 PM) [snapback]258379[/snapback]</div>

There's a difference between all-wheel drive and 4-wheel drive. Don't pretend that they are the same.

And the fact that Toyota is willing to invest in delivering both is an endorsement for HSD. Spinning it to sound like it's a negative is yet another example of misrepresentation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 19 2006, 07:57 PM) [snapback]258379[/snapback]</div>

What a fantastic example of denial !!!

Honda President Takeo Fukui makes announcements about what they plan to deliver within the next few years. He talks about the upcoming 5-seat hybrid that's "cheaper and smaller" than Civic-Hybrid. He talks about how they intend to improve efficiency for their mid-to-large vehicles by using diesel engines. He even talks about meeting the strict NOx emission standards.

There's no mention at all about competing with Camry-Hybrid. Lack of attention is a warning sign. Accord is their flagship product, which competes directly with Camry. The fact that they haven't announced any plans at all to deliver a hybrid equivalent is should worry Honda supporters.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 19 2006, 09:49 PM) [snapback]258401[/snapback]</div>

Indeed, denial.

So you're saying the fact that they haven't announced a 4 cylinder hybrid Accord means they can't? Can I extrapolate from this that Toyota can't produce a 4 cylinder HSD Highlander?