Prius Killer - Hybrid Honda Fit?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 19 2006, 08:57 PM) [snapback]258379[/snapback]</div>

I think the proof is not having any heavy IMA vehicles available to buy. If you think about it, as vehicle get heavier, the electric motor(s) need to become more powerful to create enough torque for efficiency.

For IMA, how can Honda create this massive torque? Remember, the one and only electric motor in IMA is physically and permanently integrated (hence Integrated Motor Assist) with the drive shaft with the ICE. This basic principle of IMA is what is handicapping it. The only way to make more torque is to increase the electric motor's size and weight.

In HSD, Toyota used a second Planetary Gearset as a Speed Reduction Unit. This SRU multiplies MG2 torque. You see this set up in Highlander Hybrid, RX400h and even Camry HSD.

Link: "the adoption of a planetary gear to amplify torque through motor speed reduction increases power output by approximately 2.48 times that of the Prius motor, despite the respective units being of near identical size."

Since we are on this topic, here are some info from March issue of Automotive Engineering International:

"The front motor/generator’s maximum output-shaft torque is increased 2.48-fold, by a new reduction planetary gearbox, to a huge 825 N·m (608 lb·ft) from 0-1500 rpm. The propulsion motor/generator now runs up to 12,400 rpm, twice as high as the Prius unit, while the rear motor/generator attains a 10,500-rpm maximum. The starter/generator’s maximum rpm is also in the ten-thousand region. The voltage booster and the reduction gearbox allow smaller yet high-revving and more powerful motors/generators within a transaxle that is not much From larger than a stepped-gear automatic transmission, thus fitting neatly in the RX and Highlander engine bay."

"Chief Engineer Osamu Sadakata, responsible for the RX 400h/Highlander Hybrid development, is particularly proud of his company’s exceptional and unique manufacturing technologies. The front transaxle’s counter-drive gear unit accommodates two planetary gear sets: drive-split and reduction gears in a single casing with two sets of inner teeth. Furthermore, the drive is by gears in the THS-II SUV transaxle, versus the THS-II Prius’ silent chain drive. “Gear drive must have just the right amount of backlash, or gears will freeze, but even a tiny bit too much would induce gear noise. It was a daunting challenge to our engineering and manufacturing people alike,” said Sadakata."

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 19 2006, 08:53 PM) [snapback]258406[/snapback]</div>

Nope.

What I'm saying is they are not willing too.

Engineering could alter the layout of the front of the vehicle to squeeze in the system. But they haven't shown any sign whatsoever that they want to make that investment. No attention at all has been placed on a desire to compete with Camry-Hybrid.

Isn't the point to make money? If they have nothing to sell, what the heck are you defending them for? Of course, maybe you aren't. This could be a twisted attempt to make them fail. Hmm. That's interesting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 19 2006, 10:00 PM) [snapback]258413[/snapback]</div>

Isn't that what the hybrid accord is?

And who knows if the CH will be successful. I think Honda is probably taking a wait and see attitude towards it.

 

I have no idea what the pissing match is about.

If IMA becomes the prefered solution for small, gas only hybrid cars, GREAT for Honda
If HSD becomes the preferred solution for larger and awd drive cars, GREAT for Toyota
If *something* becomes the preferred solution for gas optional cars, GREAT for somebody.

The world market for cars is somewhere around 20 - 30 million a year. That is large enough to allow economies of scale for more than one competing technology.

Just my opinion, of course.
Heck, just the fact that even the most optimistic estimates regarding hybrid uptake still think the regular ole ICE car will still be the car of choice for the next 10 years easy is telling regarding market diversity.

Presuming hegemony of one hybrid technology is unreasonable. I have read John's logs. He thinks that a hybrid monopoly will speed adoption into the market. That basic premise is flawed on so many levels, it is hardly worth the skin on my fingers to debunk it.

And it is not worth it, as consumers will buy what suits them, ideology notwithstanding. My one single prognostication, however, stands: as fuel becomes more expensive, average vehicle size will decrease. A short stint in front of the tv showing *anywhere* outside of N. america is proof.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 19 2006, 09:29 PM) [snapback]258427[/snapback]</div>

The fact that we now know that you have forgotten explains a lot.

Let's begin again, but this time keep focused...

LONG-TERM BUSINESS SUCCESS is what started it. We pointed out that IMA couldn't be electrically augumented and some Honda supporters got upset... rather than acknowledging that it is not designed to take advantage of a larger motor and battery-pack, but HSD is.


As for your "He thinks that a hybrid monopoly will speed adoption into the market." claim, how can you say that? Over and over and over again, I endorse "full" hybrid technology. That's a design with the ability to create & consume electricity at the same time as well as deliver the ability for electric-only driving in addition to provide the flexibility to support a wide array of configurations. The "assist" hybrid technology does not meet those requirements, which is what the automotive industry requires to remain profitable. And where did the speed reference come from? I've been teaching people patience, pointing out the reality that it will take years for the rollout to progress to a large-scale success. And now that 6 years have already passed, that is proof. After all, my website was founded with the purpose of helping people endure the long wait.

 

As usual, pissy and prissy.

I'm afraid a condenscending attitude is not enough to command my attention. I doubt this message will get through to you, but just in case: When people like me, a supporter of the Prius, tell you to piss off, I have to wonder how effective you are with the undecided.

 

The undecided ask questions. They never reply with personal insults, especially to messages attempting to clarify and be objective.

Face it, the domestic automakers are currently in a lot of trouble. Short-Term profit is what got them there. Rather than investing in long-term solutions, the executives and shareholders stuffed their pockets.

So how is continuing to ignore the long-term helpful? Think about how horribly slow to respond and resistant to change the automotive industry is. Establishing a new standard, like the "assist" hybrid, is taking too small of a step... one they'll be stuck with for many years to come due to the investment any type of retooling and new inventory requires. And how exactly would they compete with the "full" hybrids?

The move toward clean & renewable electricity, along with the continued battery improvements, will be benefits the "full" hybrids will be able to exploit. The "assist" hybrids have very little opportunity to take advantage of that, the design lacks potential.

Where's the "get to the moon" ambition? How come striving for an "A" is dismissed for the easier acceptance of a "B" instead? The loss of motivation is to do better than the competition is disheartening.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 20 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]258531[/snapback]</div>

Here's what I don't understand... why is "assist" too small? If it does the job, and it's pretty obvious that it does, why does it matter what's under the hood?

Fact is, the Civic is PZEV and gets about the same mileage as the Prius. Fact is, the Accord Hybrid got (before it was fattened up) the same highway mileage as the Camry Hybrid. The technologies are dissimilar, but the results are so similar, who cares? The choice in what to buy should not be dictated by what's under the hood, but rather by the benefits and results.

And does a consumer get hurt if they by an assist hybrid? It's certainly not like they're going to rip the engine out in 5 years and upgrade it?

 

Right. But John cannot see past his obsession and his myopic opinions.

A successful gas only assist hybrid from Honda will only push Toyota towards PHEV sooner rather than later.