Prius less economical as experience and miles pile on

cbs4 is the name of my local CBS station...\

Anyway, I think that Toyota's track record, over the long run, is far superior to many other car manufacturers. And frankly, if my Toyota was that young, and having those problems, I would be seriously considering looking into the lemon laws in your state. And then, if nothing works out there, I would trade it in on a newer Prius, at the same dealer. Let them work out a deal that makes you, the consumer, happy. Not all the Toyota's you get will be rotten. Many more will be fine cars. I had a 1980 Toyota Corona with well over 300,000 miles on it. The only thing wrong with that car was it would not stay in park nor would it start on the first try; always the second.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cbs4 @ Nov 7 2006, 02:18 AM) [snapback]344880[/snapback]</div>

honestly, if it's taking them that long and costing that much, I'd say there's probably a bigger problem than just the headlight assembly - they're probably guessing, replacing stuff, and seeing if it works. unfortunately when debugging a problem thats sometimes the path you have to take, especially as things get more and more complex.

Agreed, not every dealer is being strictly ethical about it, however thats a dealer problem, not a Toyota problem. While the dealers do say Toyota on them, they are independent, which restricts what Toyota can do. Every car dealership is like that - independently owned and operated.

Also, it doesn't take any special skill to remove the MFD, just the ability to follow a few instructions for removing the dash - which consist of "grip here and pull". then 2 bolts and the MFD is out - a couple of plugs later and you do everything in reverse. As for time, well i guess it depends on how much your time is worth to you. If it were me, I'd rather spend the 30 minutes (and yes, thats all the time it really takes, i did the whole thing when putting in my DICE) than pay some shop $100+ for their time.

You can't say whats included in the replacement, and yet you're willing to make the assumption that they're just throwing parts out in the trash... For a company like Toyota, they probably have the entire assembly that the dealers and pull out and drop in, then send the broken one back to corporate, where a team of actual engineers (and not mechanics) can diagnose the problem, determine the root cause (environmental, manufacturing, supply) and prevent the problem from happening in future models - then they replace the broken part and have a "refurbished" unit like they do with the MFD.

I doubt the problem is in the HID light itself, otherwise it would have been fixed in a few minutes by replacing it. Instead, the problem is probably in a loose connection, a bad wire, or a computer - very difficult to diagnose.

Is it a shortage of forethought or a safety feature? If it was easy to remove the headlight assembly, then it would be easy for thieves - and HID's are targeted as parts with a high resale value. There are reasons for everything...

You may not have said it, but the implication was there with the constant attacks on the quality, replacement cost, etc of parts, mostly ignoring arguments and explanations to the contrary until now. Also, it wasn't intended as an attack, simply an observation of actions... i don't have to say something is horrible for someone to get that impression.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cbs4 @ Nov 7 2006, 12:18 AM) [snapback]344880[/snapback]</div>

You raise many very legitimate points. Cars today seem to be designed in such a way that repairs are wasteful and obscenely expensive. There is no excuse for this.

Car makers across the board are guilty of this, and they deserve our condemnation for it.

The big difference with Toyota is that, on average, their cars need repairs far less frequently. I believe that only Honda can match Toyota's reliability.

Many years ago I drove an American Motors Jeep, which I bought new. It broke down on the road and stranded me an average of 2 or 3 times a year, and on one occasion I waited two months for the repair, because the dealer had to wait nearly that long for the part to arrive. Specifically the distributor.

You are justified in everything you say, except in the implication that your problem and all the problems you have gleaned from various posts on Prius Chat are likely to happen to every Prius on the road. Toyota should design their cars to be easier and cheaper to repair. But Toyota does design and build their cars so that break-downs are less common than with just about any other car you can buy.

 

the OP mentioned a Ford Focus, estimated cost of out of warantee headlight repair

this is from the Service manager of All Star Lincoln-Mecury in Renton, WA (my sister)

to LOOK at the problem $89
MINIMUM labor charge $150 (most replacemnts require removal of battery, several covers and some front end parts) can be as high as $400 for some years AND it depends on which side the headlight is on.
cost of headlight. if JUST the bulb $150-$250

if its a sealed beam headlight $900

maybe you should re-evaluate your statements

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cbs4 @ Nov 5 2006, 02:16 PM) [snapback]344162[/snapback]</div>

I find this astonishing. That's 30,000 miles each year. If she takes the car out every day of the year that's an average of over 80 miles each day, which could easily be at least 2 hours in the car EVERY DAY of the year.
In my middle years I was in a job which entailed visiting properties throughout a working day in a rural area of about 200 square miles. In addition we used to drive to the south of France for our summer holidays but my total annual mileage was never higher that 16,000.
Motoring has never been a cheap way to travel. (Unless you're in a bus with about 50 passengers)

 

I think that you have to be in cbs4's position to understand his argument. Would you still be cheering for the Prius if you had just spent $2000 on one headlight assembly that failed out of warranty? Or if your MFD failed and you are faced with a bill for several hundred dollars? Or, a new 12-volt battery for $150?

My MFD failed recently, preceded by the ABS system. When people ask me about my Prius I can no longer be 100 percent supportive. I say that it has 50,000 miles, that it's a very nice car, and that these two things have failed and will likely be very expensive to fix.

 

As an engineer, I often find myself makings trade-offs between reliability and ease/cost of repair or replacement. A part that fails often or is consumed will be designed for easy replacement. Tires and windshield wipers are a good example of this sort of part. With reliable components, it is less imperative that they be easily replaced or repaired, sometimes even a disadvantage. An example from the electronics industry comes to mind: When TVs and other consumer electronic devices were filled with vacuum tubes, the tubes were placed in sockets so that they could be replaced when they burned out, and burn out they did. Tubes have largely been superseded by transistors and integrated circuits, which don't burn out during normal use, although they do occasionally fail. The small failure rate of these devices doesn't warrant the cost of a socket, and socketing the devices reduces the overall reliability due to the extra connections.

Another example are flashlight bulbs. Light bulbs are built to fit into some sort of socket for easy replacement, since they only run for a few hundred hours before failure. However, many new flashlights use LEDs as bulbs, which run for many thousands of hours before dimming to an unacceptable level. They also occasionally fail, but the chances of that are vary slim. Many of these new flashlights have dispensed with the socket for the bulbs for the same cost and reliability reasons as above.

Product designers don't always make the right choices when making trade-offs. In some cases, space or styling constraints force a designer into making bad choices. Other times a device turns out to be less reliable than originally thought. This is often true with new devices and technologies, where it takes a generation or two to get it right.

My standard joke about automotive service is that every service procedure starts with "remove the left tail light assembly..." and then you dismantle everything forward as you work toward the engine compartment.

Tom

 

after mentioning this to my sister (see post above) she immediately confirmed the OP as being normal. living in the past, not having a clue as to the real cost of maintaining a modern vehicle.

she says, in her job as a automobile service manager, she gets people every day threatening her with lawsuits, reports to the BBB, etc. they leave in a huff, spend a few days calling other repair shops, return with their tail between their legs hoping that she had forgotten their tirade a few days before.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Oxo @ Nov 7 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]344987[/snapback]</div>

I actually drive at least 35,000 miles per year (I work with adults with disabilities living in supported living homes in the community). I am in the car quite a bit each day visiting sites and clients throughout the city, and it makes me proud to drive a Prius because at least I am having less of an impact on the environment while ensuring quality of life for our clients.

To get back on topic, I've already posted that I currently have over 47,000 trouble-free miles in my 2005 Prius, doing all of the oil and filter changes myself each 5,000 miles. I can't say that same for my last car, a Chevy Cavalier, that had over 197,000 miles on it when I retired it (not a common occurence), on which I had to replace 3 alternators, 2 A/C compressors, a cracked head gasket, water pump, etc. Obviously, every car's operating costs will increase with mileage/age, but I hold that the costs involving a Toyota are much lower than other manufactuers.

 

what you're experiencing is incompetence on the dealer level, plain and simple. if they're planning on replacing the computer, light, and assembly, they should have this done within the day unless parts are on order.

six days... now that's beyond ridiculous and that's your dealer's problem. standard labor for this job is about 3 hours. that's how long toyota says the job should take based on their protocol for removal/replacement. it can even be done in under 3 hours. the computer is bolted to the bottom of the light assembly. the bumper is not hard to remove, if you don't know how to do the job without removing the bumper.

i suggest you find another dealer. that's where the problem is. they think that a prius hid system is different than any other toyota hid system, they refused to take an in depth look to diagnose your problem to begin with, and i'd be willing to bet they're replacing everything because they don't know Wth else to do. not the way to do business.

i'd also be calling the service manager tomorrow and raising some hell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cbs4 @ Nov 7 2006, 09:52 PM) [snapback]345239[/snapback]</div>

again... my husband works at a toyota dealer. he fixes these things for a living. he's seen the whole range of experience of things that can go wrong. we still bought one because of how few problems he sees- at one of the busiest prius service shops in the nation.

 

troy sells the extended warranty here for $990 for 100k/7 years. screw that $1875 business.

the dealer does have you in a rental, correct? any warranty work that takes more than 4 hours should have you in a rental. this should also put pressure on them to get the job done already, as your wife would be racking up lots of miles on one of their rental cars.

now. i think you are overreacting about the rest of this.

first, your car is in the hands of some stupid people who are probably replacing things that do not need to be replaced. the hid computer should be covered under extended warranty- the housing would probably not because those wouldn't need replacement unless broken, and if they're broken it's not because of inherent defect, but outside force. and the bulb is also not covered, as it's a wear item.

the mfd failure is a known issue in the 04s, the design was corrected and i haven't heard of any failures in the model years since. since you have an 06, this is no longer an issue. stop worrying about it.

if the honda you speak of has HID lights, the bulb would still cost $300-$400. and simply touching the bulb with your fingertip will destoy the bulb the first time it would fire so most people would still probably prefer to have it changed at a shop. this is an issue of HID vs halogen lights and not toyota vs any other brand lights.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 7 2006, 10:20 AM) [snapback]344954[/snapback]</div>

Still makes the HID system over twice as expensive to repair than conventional, even if compared to your sister's worst-case-scenrio example.

The other thing to consider is the most common failed part of a conventional headlight is the part that probably the cheapest and easiest to fix yourself. A $20 bulb. Where does you start when an HID headlight goes out?

It may very well be true that $2000 is just what it costs to replace and HID headlight. But it would hard for me to rationalize spending 10% or more of the car's value to fix a headlight. Makes me glad I don't have HID lights. I have driven cars with them - I am not near convinced they are worth the money (seeing what they cost as an option on some cars).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cbs4 @ Nov 7 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]345239[/snapback]</div>

oh for crying out loud. my post only illustrates how out of touch a LOT of people are when it comes to modern car repair. if you want to take that as a personal attack, go for it. or maybe you should take another look at your original post and your situation and realize that sweeping generalizations made with outdated prices and non-existant situations coupled with a very small but possible (after all, it did happen to you) scenarios and all but say that we are all guaranteed to fall victim to the same circumstance that you are in despite you driving, on average 3 times farther than average

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Nov 7 2006, 10:44 PM) [snapback]345305[/snapback]</div>

let me elaborate.

these types of lighting systems are extremely expensive to replace, but on average, rarely fail. they are much more shock and temperature resistant and should last years. when they fail, there is almost always an underlying cause.

that is why it takes $89 to look at it. in a great portion of headlamp repairs, another system or component needs to be fixed. what i outlined is in no way a "worst case" scenario. in reality, it can be several hundred more dollars to completely rectify the situation.

all in all, its expensive to fix these things and i would be surprised to find out that fixing a Prius headlight would be all that much different than fixing a similiar system on another vehicle brand. according to the original post, the extra expense is because its a Prius. i find that difficult to believe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cbs4 @ Nov 8 2006, 02:06 AM) [snapback]345336[/snapback]</div>

ECU = Computer

If they replaced the Computer because of a bad bulb, I'd go with galaxee on the competence question

 

I didn't want HID headlights. I do not feel that blinding the oncoming driver makes me safer. But I could not get VSC and the full compliment of air bags without accepting HID headlights as well.

So, Galaxee, what is the expected lifetime of the HID headlights, and what should it cost to replace one when it burns out?

Oh, and thank you for the information about the refurbished MFDs. I drive an '04, so that's good to know, just in case. Though I still consider the chances of any sort of problems to be very small.

And FWIW, I did not buy my Prius in an attempt to "save" money with an "economical" car. Nobody who wants to "save" money on a car should ever buy any new car. The cost differential is too great. A good used car will always be cheaper to operate over the life of the car. I bought it because my old car did not have air bags or ABS brakes, and because the technology is cool. It is safe and fun, and it pollutes less. I think that's the reason most of us bought it. Plus Toyota reliability.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Nov 8 2006, 09:55 AM) [snapback]345430[/snapback]</div>

From the description of mounting under the headlamp, I'd suspect that the part in question is referred to as the "control module" in the documentation and that it is really just the high voltage power supply needed by HID lamps. See:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/ind...amp;catalogid=2

Going over the headlamp parts list, a complete HID headlight costs about $1000 list, a couple hundred less with the Hoy-Fox discount prices. The housing, power supply (control module), and lamp are about $300 each. That is right in line with the prices for Audi HID headlamps (actually a bit cheaper).

Barb crashed her 2005 Prius when it was a month old and the repair replaced both headlight assemblies. They were listed as $610 each on the bodyshop invoice, but I don't know if that included the "control modules".

$2000 for one headlight is ridiculous even with labor. No way an electronics problem should need the lamp housing for example.

- Tom