Prius may not save as much as you think...

$1400 for insurance! I pay $400. I am on my second Prius and my repair costs have been 0 (not including routine maintenance). I will probably be a Prius owner for the rest of my life.

 

Woaaa Hoss:

Someone reporting nonsense from another source . . . I'm not in the business of 'killing the messenger'.

It would have been better to cite a Kelly Blue Book URL as the source. But bringing a documented, Prius-skeptical source in for a Prius-peer review is perfectly OK:

• allows a critical review to identify inconsistencies and errors in the original report
• identifies another Prius-skeptic source, in this case Kelly Blue Book
• prepares Prius owners for the 'ditto-heads' who we meet at work, stores, or other occasions

I have no problem with seeing Prius-skeptic reports, certainly by folks with some posting history at PriusChat. It is the 'first time' or under five posts ones who deserve a more through . . . scrubbing. But I don't see that trollish pattern here.

A better posting practice in this case would be:

• Kelley Blue Book - shows different car total ownership for newly bought, sold after 5 years in different classes, here 'hybrid', 'midsize' and 'compact' with the lowest and highest models of the midsize and compact classes:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4	Column 5	Column 6	Column 7
0	[th]model[th]cost[tr][td]Prius c (hybrid)[td]$28	564[tr][td]Prius Two (hybrid)[td]$34	162[tr][td]Honda Accord LX (midsize)[td]$33	014[tr][td]VW Passat (midsize)[td]$34	924[tr][td]Honda Civic (compact)[td]$28	332[tr][td]Hyundai Veloster (compact)[td]$30	358

Source:
Kelley Blue Book

So here we see how Kelly has kept the hybrids apart from the gas only, midsize and compact cars. The bias is that our hybrids are something different from their concept of 'ordinary' cars. Had the hybrids been part of the compact and midsize set, the most expensive car on their lists would have been bumped.

Bob Wilson

 

It gives me peace of mind to know the oil companies are not getting as much of my money and I'm not paying as much in taxes. However I realize that as fuel economy goes up and up and up the screw us factor also goes up and up and up. WHEN I FILL UP AT THE GAS STATION, I DEFINITELY FEEL BETTER! In these times, any time however brief in a state of tranquility, is a joy to behold.

 

What amuses me is that if the OP had linked to a FFH analysis and changed the title to "Ford's Hybrid may not save as much as you think", the same PC members would have praised the methodology.

 

I know my fuel-ups have been $25 or less with the bonus points I get on gasoline. Regardless of what the public may say, think or feel, things are OK here in my little world.

 

Cash is only a form of credit - inflation - especially hyper inflation - can make a cash king into a cash pauper. I'm focused on working assets - assets which provide either income, increased value over time, or do some kind of valuable function/work. Cash in the bank that does nothing is a money losing investment ( The Federal Reserve is doing this on purpose in hopes that this will *spur* investors). Small investors - like me can't make money speculating on oil and gas like Bank of America - but I can mitigate getting taken to the cleaners by oil speculators by driving a Prius....

I've seen those studies about inflation adjusted dollars too. Those studies are to designed protect the jobs of politicians, policy wonks, and bankers - but for the average citizen like me - they are useless. You see my point of view is that -- Life is about seizing the day. I am not looking to complain about yesterday or proudly proclaiming how better I am than so-n-so.

Note that inflation adjusted dollars using the CPI is a weighted measure which has varied in its computation over time. The formula has a heavy stress on the increased value of durable goods, rent/mortgages, cars, than it does for energy and food. Note that the CPI differs over regions (state to state, metro area, rural area). The CPI is also heavily weighted by long term trends. For example, low rent/mortgage rates can help keep the CPI down. However, if you own your own home this has no meaning. IIRC - I read that based on the CPI inflation adjusted dollars , the gasoline price spikes due to the OPEC oil embargo(1970s) was much higher in CPI inflation rate adjusted dollars than the gas prince spikes cause by oil and gas speculators during the Great Recession. Soo my point is that : (1) The weights used by CPI inflation rate does not accurately account for thing that I must buy and pay for because I don't fit the CPI's average consumer model , (2) knowing that the inflationary spike is relatively not as bad as the worst gas/diesel price spikes in U.S.A. history is like saying " your wounds are horribly bad and ,yes, you are in terrible pain - but remember - you've been wounded much worst than this before and look here - you're still alive! Chin up - the good news is you won't die!"

My analysis is for myself and I don't pretend that it is going to work for everyone. KBB's TOC analysis is only a starting point - it should never be the end point of a personal financial analysis-decision or the total argument for buying a motor vehicle - that would be a big mistake. A personal financial decision (like buying a car) requires an individual financial analysis that uniquely fits that person's financial situation. My example, demonstrates how far an individual's financial situation might stray from the general financial model.

 

I bought an '04 Prius new in Oct. '03, for $22052 + T/L. I drove it 70K miles in two years, nine months, then sold it back to the original selling dealer for $16,000 (not a trade). Since I paid cash, there were no financing costs per se (although there would be a cost of money since I wasn't investing it anymore). I kept track of every penny I spent on that car, including all the things listed by the OP, and also included cost of all fuel consumed, which the study he cited did not. Bottom line: my car cost me a shade over $.21 per mile to own and operate. I think at the time the AAA cost of ownership put the average at around $.50 per mile. My total cost of ownership and operating this vehicle was $15,032.98 over 70633 miles. No repairs, just routine maintenance and one set of tires.
Gas prices were a bit lower then ($2.00 in August '04 and $3.00 in April '06) and my high mileage cost me about $4,000 when I sold it. There weren't many used Prius on the lots at the time, and the resale was good, so I was able to bargain a bit with the dealer. (Their first offer was something like $11,500.) My car also had valid HOV lane stickers, which helped.
Unless a study like the one quoted compares at least a few other vehicles, to me it isn't really meaningful. Plus they are using a certain amount of "guesstimating", going out five years, sort of like the weatherman forecasting more than a couple of days out. And, of course, the facts in my story go back over six years, so are out of date.

 

To me, owning a car is an exercise in applied '2nd Law'. You'll never come out ahead, just less behind than if you'd made a different choice.

Bob Wilson

 

I did the math in order to decide on buying a plug in Prius. 0 % financing needs to be considered, the incredible advantage of the Plug in effect on suburban MPG. $4000 off from toyota, $2500 tax break, $500 rebate from the local electric utility. If you graph out the second five years of ownership the difference becomes dramatic. No one can read the future, but it would not surprise me if the price of gas goes up in the next ten years, making the MPG difference more significant.

 

KBB analysis have a pretty good track history. There is a reason that banks and lenders use them as a reference point. Of course every individual transaction will be different just as every individual will get a different MPG. They take into account trade-in values, resale values, etc ... but just like the EPA is struggling with how to evaluate plug-ins, perhaps KBB needs to evolve their TCO methods, but I think they are pretty close.

When people want to dismiss a TCO analysis because they don't sell their vehicles, they are typically just straight lining the depreciation of the vehicle for 10+ years and quickly forget their initial investment overhang on their operating costs beyond the 100,000 mile mark. They often don't consider that they could have purchased a slightly used vehicle and driven it for significantly less TCO. They also tend to dismiss the value of improvements, particularly safety and comfort.

Of course they are shocked when they get in a fender bender with their 2 year old vehicle and they think it is worth more than their insurance company does.

IIRC KBB has a different TCO methodology for collectibles.

 

Bob,

IMHO, because you put so much effort into your life - no matter what you do you'll come out ahead.

For the most part, Life is not a steady-state perpetual motion machine
-- normally, those who come out ahead have to work at it.

Walter

 

Those that come out ahead just means someone else tripped up more along the way.

 

KBB TCO model is a good starting point for a financial analysis, but it is an inadequate end point.
This stuff makes me think of how in Chess there are a variety of Chess Openings like "Ruy Lopez" or "Queen's Gambit" while the teaching of Chess End Games get a bit stickier ... yeah, the Devil's is in the details.

 

Ah, yes. The world is full of traps and false leads!

A basic financial model - like a TOC - helps one ask some of the right questions and helps you think - but it cannot replace relevant experience, skilled/trained intellect, and persistent effort that is needed to find a solution. I suppose there might be an app for that? Maybe there is an artificially intelligent program that helps people think this stuff through but I haven't seen one yet...

 

There is an app. It's called "What would grandma do"

The title is the badge that says she finished ahead of just about everyone, including grandpa.

 

I pay much less than half...

Traffic Tickets: Don't be stupid in any car, you don't get them. This is a weird one, throw it out.
Insurance: I pay less because of my Prius. Because of my Prius, I save 20% on insurance (hybrid discount). And that is a blanket 20%. So with the other 4 cars on that policy and the home insurance, I save 20%. This is significant just for owning a hybrid.
Registration: I also pay less because it is a hybrid. It has a lower registration tax bracket because it is a hybrid than a standard ICE only vehicle. And the vehicles that get really low mpg and are officially "gas guzzlers" pay extra at registration time.
Tax: Tax on what? Purchase price? That is the same no matter what except in some places where I think EV's are exempt. Sales tax is sales tax, even if you buy a bicycle you are paying the same percentage.
Parking: I don't pay for parking but unless your car can automatically drive and park where it is free, this is of no difference to any other vehicle. A motorcycle still has to pay for parking too.
Maintenance: I pay essentially nothing. Oil changes and 1 ATF fluid change is the complete total of my maintenance performed over 105K miles.
Car Wash: Only Prii can go through car washes? Seriously?

SKS is on many vehicles. If you lose your keys it is going to cost you. The same fob in our Lexus 450h costs about $800 from the dealership. Internally it is exactly the same as our Prius fob, it just has a silver "L" on it instead of the Toyota face.

All car's 12v's go bad. On the Prius it is not subjected to much stress so it can last much longer than in other vehicles. Age instead of use is what kills them mostly, and this is true with any vehicle. A $200 battery versus a $150 battery is hardly much of a difference when you consider a minimum life of 3 years. More realistically 6+ years.

You only worry about the HV battery if you don't know about it. And when it does die like all batteries do, a $2000 replacement is cheap for all the other savings and you still come out ahead.

There are things that don't cost money but are better on HSD hybrids. No idling at a stop for a quiet ride, no shifting through gears, all that jazz. It is nicer in the Lexus, but it is just fine in the Prius. And nothing can touch Prius mileage.

If you want to throw in the cost of carwashes and traffic tickets into owning a car, how about the cost of human life securing oil fields to fuel all the vehicles. A human is considered to cost about $7million to $9million dollars today. If you get 50mpg and someone else gets 25mpg, for every person killed in the name of oil, you only are cause for half of what they are cause to. Same for when an oil tanker spills millions of barrels into nature preserves.

 

I have 0% financing on my prius
My insurance is <$1000 a year
I do all the maintenance myself
I first prius never needed a repair, I will wait to see on this new one.

The prius is saving me as much as I think.
I think the OP making assumptions that do not apply to everyone- and therefore a thread like this is misleading

 

Plus, when oil prices spike, the trade in value goes up as well. The price of gas will never go down. I do not think KBB takes that into consideration.

 

lets see, I paid 22K$, I put 50,ooo miles on it at LMPG pump of 57. Could sell now for maybe 18K$. Lost $4000 in depreciation ... saved (57-25)= 32 mpg saved (50000/57) gallons used *3.70 = total gas cost of $3250.of which the prius saved me 32/57 *3250= $1820 saved. so for the 3 years I had it it cost me (4000-1820)/3= $726 a year or $60 a month, to drive a great car - cheap enough. ( I neglected insurance which is another $50 which I would have had to pay the same for any car.) No repairs yet. GOOD DEAL.

 

I bought my Prius because I've liked the concept of them for years. I really wanted a Nissan Leaf or a Tesla S. However, I do not have a garage and no place to charge at home. I was not interested in Ford Products or GM. I also feel better about the fact that when I'm in stuck in stop and go traffic the engine shuts off and I'm no longer spewing emissions while I just sit there idling. (Unless I've had something spicy, then there may be other emissions, but I digest). I also LOVE the fact that when I'm driving at 35MPH or 45MPH that sometimes the EV kicks in and the engine shuts off. I'm moving the vehicle without putting out any emissions (except for the aforementioned spicy food). I also love being able to drive to my building at work when I finally make it on campus and it's all electric.

Not to mention, I paid less for my 3 than what KBB is using for the amount. I went to the Credit Union and used their car buying service to do the deal. The sticker on my car was approximately 27K, the Invoice was 25.5K, I got it for 22.5K. I also got the top amount for my trade in a 2007 Toyota LE 62K miles (or somewhere around there) So yeah. Prius 3 with Blizzard no sun roof but the floor mats, cargo mat, paint protectant, fabric protectant, 5 years maintenance. I have a new car, lower payments than before AND I'm getting better gas mileage. I think that KBB should be taken with a grain of salt simply because they can only use what the max number is. If you wheel and deal and use a buying service through your credit union then yeah, you get an even better deal. Each owner will experience a different total cost of ownership. It's not always about the money though, like for me, my purchase was primarily for ecological reasons over less money at the pump. I just happened to win out with my deal though so I'm getting more bang for my ecological decision.