Prius Plug-in vs Chevy-Volt thoughts

Discussion in 'Chevrolet Volt' started by mozdzen, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    I find this comment rather funny and sad. The number of very agressive smugly superior prius owners on PC is very large, including many of your own posts. Posts here that people don't trust GM or about BAS or two-mode sale have nothing to do with the Volt's technology. Volt forums don't pick on Tuntra's Lexus RH or other toyota's ICE or other hybrids product just to put down the company. The Volt is not like any previous GM car, so don't try to lump it with them. Innovation is often started in a company in a single product line, setting a new direction and new tone.

    If you want to be arguing for stock-picks and long-term company value, go ahead.. but that is not about the Volt. If you want to talk about the Volt vs PiP, talk about the cars, not the companies' past.

    Your comment about lack of choice is not clear.. what other options did you think the Volt missed that say the PiP included?
     
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Who is the market for Volt ?

    I asked that question for years. The hesitation of providing an answer was a dead giveaway expectations were not being properly addressed.

    PHV will transform short-trips from "MPG killer" to "killer MPG". It's so huge of a paradigm shift without any negative impact to long-trips that the competition is scratching their heads wondering how this new reality will alter the way hybrids are perceived.

    In other words, PHV strikes out at a massive consumer base... quite unlike the current configuration of Volt.
    .
     
  3. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    The Volt concept was shown more than 5 years ago. Where is the Volt under $30,000 that also gets 50 MPG on gas?

    GM needs to cut the battery size in half. Throw in an efficient Atkinson cycle gas engine and use it more often. The heck with EREV BS. That'll create a competitive plugin against Prius PHV and Ford Energi.
     
  4. gwmort

    gwmort Active Member

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    I completely get that in choosing between two products it makes sense to weigh in how you feel about the companies standing behind the products. GM lost a lot of trust and will need to work hard to earn it back.

    I owned a prius for 8 years, it was a great product and I thought Toyota did a great job in general standing behind it (ran into a local dealer problem but won't hold that against the manufacturer).

    The prius was my first foreign car, and I felt a little guilty about it at the time, but convinced myself I was spurring domestic car companies to answer the call. My dad is a chevy truck person, always was and always will be, I kid him about my mileage, but I am glad we can share we both drive chevy's. To each their own.
     
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  5. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    The Volt dealer just qualified the 29,900 price tag on one of the Volts. That price includes a $3K dealer mark down plus the $7500 tax credit. Why they priced that car with the tax credit included but the other 5 Volts without it included? Probably to get people like me to contact them and ask about the car - another dealer "technique" that turns me off from setting foot on a dealer's premises. I usually buy through the AAA car buying program. These dealers are not helping sell Volts in my opinion.
     
  6. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. The car with the tax credit already subtracted from the price could be a demo or a transfer from another dealer. Some people have posted at GM-volt.com about buying cars priced that way by dealers. It is useful for some people who do not want to lease and do not have enough tax liability of their own to take full advantage of the tax credit (which does not carry over to future years). For example, it could be useful for a retired senior with plenty of assets but a low taxable income.
     
  7. Roadburner440

    Roadburner440 Member

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    There is certaintly a double standard when it comes to the PiP and Volt. In my mind the PiP has no market except for people that want to pay the extra money to get HOV lane priveledges. The car is nearly as expensive as the Volt, and in my mind comes to the party quite late.

    Just running my own numbers between our Volt, and our regular 2011 Gen III Prius the PiP really fills no gap. Everyone likes to ding the Volt for waiting to recharge. Well you would need to recharge the PiP twice as often to do the same EV miles. I did a comparison sometime back, and the results were pretty telling. Everyone loves talking about the time it takes to "payback" the investment. With a PiP the payback is slim to none, and with the price difference I could drive my Gen III an astonishing 70,000 miles at current prices! Not to mention the farther your drive it without recharging the less the pay back is, and at 100 miles it costs the same amount to drive your PiP as it does a regular Gen III. So what is the sense?

    So everyone says the Volt does not meet average peoples needs, it's a piece of junk, etc.. So basically if you drive 50 miles or less a day the Volt is the best car. If you drive between 50-100 miles a day the difference in cost to drive between a PiP and a Gen III is slim to none.

    Realistically just running some easier numbers. If you keep the cars for 100,000 miles driving 100 miles per day at current gas prices you wind up with the following (including up front costs without interest).

    Base Volt
    Total Fuel Cost: $8,175
    Cost Per Mile: $0.08
    Gas Consumed: 1756 gallons
    CPM+Base Price: $0.48

    Base PiP
    Total Fuel Cost: $6,654
    Cost Per Mile: $0.066
    Gas Consumed: 1700 gallons
    CPM+Base Price: $0.36

    Regular Prius:
    Total Fuel Cost: $7098
    Cost Per Mile: $0.070
    Gas Consumed: 1960
    CPM+Base Price: $0.31
    Savings: $5000

    Even if you half it you still come out better with the Gen III (100,000 miles @ 50 miles per day)

    Base Volt
    Total Fuel Cost: $6,046
    Cost Per Mile: $0.060
    Gas Consumed: 810
    CPM+Base Price: $0.46

    Base PiP
    Total Fuel Cost: $6,068
    Cost Per Mile: $0.060
    Gas Consumed: 1400
    CPM+Base Price: $0.36

    Regular Prius II:
    Total Fuel Cost: $7098
    Cost Per Mile: $0.070
    Gas Consumed: 1960
    CPM+Base Price: $0.31
    Savings: $5000 (buys 70,000 miles worth of gas)

    Even heading down to 25 miles per day @ 100,000

    Base Volt
    Total Fuel Cost: $3,380
    Cost Per Mile: $0.0338
    Gas Consumed: 100? gallons (picked number out of thin air cause of maintenance mode)
    CPM+Base Price: $0.4338

    Base PiP
    Total Fuel Cost: $4896
    Cost Per Mile: $0.048
    Gas Consumed: 800 gallons
    CPM+Base Price: $0.34

    Regular Prius:
    Total Fuel Cost: $7541 (down rated fuel economy for shorter drive)
    Cost Per Mile: $0.075
    Gas Consumed: 2083 gallons
    CPM+Base Price: $0.315
    Savings: $3000 (buys 42,000 miles worth of gas)

    So using the same arguments used against the Volt for why the regular Prius is better works even against the PiP. Even down to a distance of 25 miles. You are better off spending $24,000 for a regular Prius, and pocketing the extra money. It buys quite a bit of gas. The above is assuming you bought regular @ $3.62 & electric for $0.112/kwh (I used $3.80 for Premium in the Volts figures @ 37mpg). So that pretty much summarizes that. The only logical conclusion I can draw is for the diamond lane stickers to save time on the commute. Whether that is worth an extra $6000 or so is up to the individual.

    As far as saving gas over a regular regular Prius you would need to drive about 35 miles or less per day over the lifetime of the car. Somehow that number seems familiar, but I guess I will let it go there. Ultimately the point is if you want to save money just keep your regular Prius, or buy a regular Gen III. Want to use less gasoline and drive less than 50 miles per day buy a Volt.
     
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  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    There is only a single choice, it's the plug-in 16 kWh or nothing.

    With HSD, you've got a variety of engine & motor choices along with the first to offer a larger capacity pack with a plug.

    TOO LITTLE, TOO SLOWLY has been the concern all along. Remember that assessment from the automotive task-force as part of the bankruptcy recovery plan?
    .
     
  9. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    The quotes from GM during development about pricing never specified if the tax credit was included or not. Some assumed they were not but I always assumed they were since at other times GM referred to "$40,000".
    The under $30,000 was an estimate stated by Lutz early in the development phase. The current price is $32,145 (from memory) after the federal credit but not counting any possible regional credits. The final MSRP of the PiP also came in higher than many thought it would.

    When GM announced a target of 50 mpg for the concept in 2007 that was under the old EPA estimate scheme that gave the 2007 Prius 60 mpg city instead of 48 or whatever under today's rules. Also, that was back when they were saying the gas engine would be 3 cylinder and 1.2L (or was it 1.0L?).
    You were just saying in another thread that the Volt was a "good car". So much for that... LOL.

    Some people have driving patterns that work better with a larger battery size and range. You guys should stop trying to insist that everyone should have smaller packs. There is no single ideal set of tradeoffs that work best for everyone.
     
  10. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    There is a lot to like about the Volt IMHO. I applaud GM for at least making the effort. My opinion all along is that they overdid the battery because it sounds cool, and underdid the basic technology (as evidenced by its poor hybrid efficiency) to try and makeup for the high battery cost. That might work out for some people with a particular driving profile and economic status, but doesn't seem like a clear path to wide scale adoption or a significant step toward the mainstreaming of electric vehicles. I can't shake the feeling that their management is pulling another GM classic. There are already people starting to roll out the ol' "see, we built it but nobody wants a car like that" line. The Volts poor acceptance will be used once again as proof that electric vehicles have no place in the market, and we should just get back to making the monsterous gas guzzlers that everyone wants. If you can get a volt with a big tax credit and markdown that might well be a great deal for you, but it may well come at the cost of greater acceptance of PHEVs and BEVs. In the short run maybe you win, but in the long run we all lose. I hope I'm wrong. I hope both the Volt and PiP both find their own places in the market and open the way to a new era of vehicles. But its really hard putting your faith in a company that has said screw the greater good lets just take 'em for everything we can time after time.
     
  11. Gurple42

    Gurple42 New Member

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    My biggest concern if considering a Volt is the fact that I could be buying an "orphan" .:(
     
  12. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Although the Volt gets EPA hybrid mpg either better (LS 250h) or only somewhat worse (CT 200h) than the Lexus HSD compact hybrids.....
     
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  13. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Who was the market for large panel flat screen plasma and LCD TVs 5-10 years ago? Those designs were targeted at an emerging technology and pricing curve that made them more expensive at the beginning but with the understanding that the design would ride the price curve down and the market would expand. Early adopters chose them because they had distinctive qualities not available in the cheaper CRT or projection screen mass-market models. CRTs and projections screens are gone now.

    The same general story should unfold for EREVs although less extreme -- there will continue to be a low-end market for blending with smaller packs for quite a while. An EREV driving experience is superior. Some will buy because of that. Others will be driven by reduced gasoline consumption on their particular driving route from the larger EV range. Prices will drop and pack sizes will shrink and get lighter.

    In the meantime, there should be cheaper blended plugins as well. PiP is here now. Others from Ford and GM (blended plugin Cruze) will arrive in the next couple of years.

    This is all good.
     
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  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    A smart and responsible buyer would research and find out that Volt's energy usage from well to wheel is worse than the no-plug regular Prius (280 vs. 222 CO2 gram/mi). Prius PHV is supposed to be around 200 g/mi).

    Midsize plugin also will allow a single family car instead of a compact commuter plus family hauler gas guzzler.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I'm not sure who you asked, but obviously you did not ask the right people. If you ask fox news or mike kelly you get one answer. If ask people on fanboi sites you'll get multiple answers. But you could read bw, wsj, advertising age, etc.
    Its for initial adopters of phevs which is a niche. Does that help?
    Volt's Target Buyers Are Techies, Not Greenies | Special: Chevy 100 - Advertising Age

    I think people are scratching there heads in another thread whether its enough electric miles for the dockets.
    http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii...4-does-anybody-else-think-pip-overpriced.html

    I think it is, and there are initial adopters that will want them despite the limited electric range.

    hmm. It seems like it hits a larger portion of the same base, initial adopters of phevs. There are a large percentage of this base that does not want to buy a gm. I would say that same base might be more willing to buy the volt than the prius phv if the volt was made by toyota and the prius phv and its compromises made by gm. The prius phv seems like the right phev targetted for the japanese market and its driving. I'm hoping toyota learns a great deal from its american customers for the next one. IMHO the bulk of (Over 50%) phv sales over the next 2 years will go to californians wanting HOV stickers.



    Yes, I'm surprised how many people think because they see an ad like that, volts really are going for $10K off MSRP. If they were they would be flying off the lots. The lease price has not changed much at all. At that discount though, its just hundreds more than the prius phv.
     
  16. gwmort

    gwmort Active Member

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    I really don't get the venom behind some of this which is superior discussion.

    The Pip is a nice little upgrade to the prius that fixes the poor mileage (comparatively) on the short trips. One issue I think they will have is no one that didn't already have a prius was aware of the problem the Pip is fixing, and compared to the mileage they are getting in their traditional ICE's wouldn't care.

    That is to say I don't think anyone was on the sidelines saying "if it weren't for that short trip mileage I would get a prius, maybe if they come up with a solution that costs several thousand dollars more I'll go ahead and get one".

    The Volt is a nice step towards electrification for those (like myself) who are too timid to take the full plunge with a BEV. Its a great luxury commuter, but the prius is probably a better family car.

    Some people like commuters, some people like economy family cars. Neither of these cars is going to push the other out of the market because they occupy different niches. Can't we all just get along?
     
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  17. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I don't think there's any real debate that the Volt is only a so-so hybrid. Its smaller than the Prius in passenger and cargo capacity, but has lower hybrid fuel economy than the significantly larger (and quicker) camry hybrid or fusion hybrid.
     
  18. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Volt is a good car. It drives well and the launch is smoother than say Hyundai Sonata hybrid.

    I was pointing the shortcomings and the desire for GM to make it more affordable so it can sell more. I wasn't trying to say Prius PHV is the perfect car for everyone.
     
  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    This does mis most of the point of a PHEV, substituting electric miles for gasoline miles. If you don't use much less gas in a volt than a prius - the king of the hybrids - then you a not a good target buyer and taking too many long trips to make the volt worthwhile. It seems most volt drivers use it in hybrid mode 1/3 of the time or less.

    Ford and Toyota have done an excellent job on their new Camry and soon to be released fusion. Neither the volts engine nor hybrid software are nearly as good. The volt could use a hold button, like they have in europe. With hold we could assume those long trips would use the ice mainly on the highway at 40mpg about the same as the camry and sonata hybrids. Volt designers can definitely do better in the next generation.
     
  20. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    I now believe that for most people, the Volt will offer dramatically lower over gasoline costs. The thirty miles of range vs 13 miles of Prius range mean that most drivers will consume very little gas. Everybody has different habits -- for example, I commute 85 miles round trip daily. But I think that for most people, they will consume far less gasoline with a Volt. The Volt concept is solid: It is an electric car which can "fall back" on a gasoline-powered engine for long trips or times when the car wasn't charged. The Plug-in Prius concept, on the other hand, may not be quite as good: A hybrid car which improves mileage with more EV capacity. For most people, the 13~15 mile limit will burn gas each day.

    I'm still a Prius fan, but for me, I now believe that the Volt offers a lower gas consumption experience for most people.
     
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