Featured Prius v ends US run, Rav4 hybrid took its sales

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Ashlem, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. GregC1979

    GregC1979 Member

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    We don't see nearly that big of a jump between Summer and Winter blends, maybe a few cents at best.
     
  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    That's a different story. Both your summer and winter blend (and mine) are Reformulated Gasoline.

    To see the cost of RFG you need to compare the wholesale price of RBOB (reformulated gas before ethanol) and CBOB (conventional gasoline before ethanol).
     
  3. GregC1979

    GregC1979 Member

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    All fine and dandy, but like I originally wrote, it's the burden from the elected state officials who make poor choices with our money and the voters don't seem to understand a lot of what they are paying is tax.
     
  4. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Amen to that! Also years ago Congress made it illegal to show taxes at the pump. Congress did not like it when the gas stations quoted before tax price.
     
  5. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    There was more to that, in ye olde times you didn’t have to display the price with tax included, just like Walland doesn’t tell you your $1 snickers bar is actually a $1.06
     
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    It was like this years ago: Gas 25 cents + 6 cents tax
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I have never claimed that other states paid more than California. Though your statement needs a "continental" to be correct.

    I did claim that:
    • Other states have seen gas prices go over $4 a gallon during times when California had such high prices. I was paying over $4 back in 2008 for Pa and NJ gas. Reformulated gas(RFG) increases the price for areas outside of Calfornia too. These include the East Coast and many places of higher population densities, like major cities.
    • California's high gas prices aren't solely because of taxes, and have shown that the total amount of tax between Ca and Pa in nearly the same. I could not account for hidden taxes, but these would have to almost double the total taxes Ca puts on gasoline. Things like the price increase for CARB's and other regulations are more likely much of the price difference. California does do things like use 91 octane for premium instead of 93 as the rest of the country.
    • When it comes to supporting hybrid adoption, Ca's gas prices are still too cheap. Japan has a higher adoption rate, but their gas price is over a dollar more than Ca's. Same for India where the percentage of Camries sold being a hybrid is going to be 90% vs. the 10% in the US. They are both over $4/gal, and hybrid sales took off in US when such prices were on the pump in the major population areas, but have been gone down with the price of gas.
    • If Toyota thinks selling the Prius v in the US, they aren't going to think selling to just California will be. The low sales already include those sold in Ca.
     
  8. GregC1979

    GregC1979 Member

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    • Other states have seen gas prices go over $4 a gallon during times when California had such high prices. I was paying over $4 back in 2008 for Pa and NJ gas. Reformulated gas(RFG) increases the price for areas outside of Calfornia too. These include the East Coast and many places of higher population densities, like major cities.
    Briefly then went back down to the $2-$2.50/gallon range and stayed there while California remained over $3.
    • California's high gas prices aren't solely because of taxes, and have shown that the total amount of tax between Ca and Pa in nearly the same. I could not account for hidden taxes, but these would have to almost double the total taxes Ca puts on gasoline. Things like the price increase for CARB's and other regulations are more likely much of the price difference. California does do things like use 91 octane for premium instead of 93 as the rest of the country.
    Again, for the third time, yes the majority of California's gas price is due to taxes and I've shown proof of that already. CARB only accounts for a small percentage of California's gas prices (again, as proved above twice with links).
    • When it comes to supporting hybrid adoption, Ca's gas prices are still too cheap. Japan has a higher adoption rate, but their gas price is over a dollar more than Ca's. Same for India where the percentage of Camries sold being a hybrid is going to be 90% vs. the 10% in the US. They are both over $4/gal, and hybrid sales took off in US when such prices were on the pump in the major population areas, but have been gone down with the price of gas.
    Again, again...people in California drive 3-4 times farther than anyone in Japan itself and the gas price is not cheap. California in certain areas is $3.50-$4 right now and Hybrid sales are doing well here, very well.
    • If Toyota thinks selling the Prius v in the US, they aren't going to think selling to just California will be. The low sales already include those sold in Ca.
    You obviously haven't lived or visited California and are making assumptions about hybrid sales.
     
  9. pjm877

    pjm877 Member

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    if the Prius V came with the options I have on my Prius 4 now... I would have bought ONE... but alas it is missing some want to have options :(
     
    #49 pjm877, Dec 2, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  10. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    what do you think it missing in case I get a v?
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I've only claimed Ca gas prices are in comparison to other countries, not other states. I was disputing the claim that only Ca ever had prices over $4 a gallon
    But you haven't explained why there is such a high difference between gas prices in Ca and Pa. Both states have nearly the same amount in taxes. If CARB and other regulations had such a small effect, I should be paying more, or you paying less.
    My comment about hybrid adoption rates pertains to the US, not just California. Yes, CA buys more, but the Philly area also bought a lot when gas prices were higher. In general, more hybrids are bought with higher gas prices. Current gains in the hybrid segment have to do with the increase of choices. The Prius has been losing sales the past few years.
    Here is the sales data for the Prius v, Toyota Prius V Sales Figures -

    Please explain how selling it to just California will result in more sales than selling it in California and the rest of the country. There isn't anything for hybrids like the ZEV program for plug ins to make offering a car just in Ca worthwhile.
     
  12. GregC1979

    GregC1979 Member

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    I've already explained how everything works with links for proof and the answers that can't be debated any longer have been shown. You are now arguing "just to argue" so my work is done here and I don't feel like facts are something you want to hear or can handle. There's nothing more to say if you don't accept truth, but I will gladly accept the win here since all my points have been validated more than once.
     
    #52 GregC1979, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    None of your links explain the price difference between Ca and Pa. Published gas taxes has the Pa state tax at just one tenth of a cent cheaper than those in Ca for 2017(Why are California’s Gasoline Prices So High? – Energy Institute Blog is from 2015). Which leaves about a 50 cent difference.

    CARB adds 10 cents.
    Both states require reformulated gas, so that equals out.
    Ca cap and trade adds other 10 cents.

    That leaves 30 cents to account for.

    If that is all some other hidden tax, that brings Ca taxes up to 88 cents before adding in the federal road tax. Over a dollar in gas taxes should have been more reported.

    I contend it has to do with California's insistence on having their own unique fuel blends, and not taxes. Only a few refineries are going to bother in making it, which limits the supply.
     
  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Wouldn't PA and CA take their fuel from different refineries? The CA price would be contingent on the West Texas Intermediate index while PA's price would be contingent on the Brent index and they trade at different prices. From what I can remember, Brent crude is typically priced lower than WTI crude.
     
  15. GregC1979

    GregC1979 Member

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    It's almost all tax in California that accounts for the price per gallon, again for the 4th time. That's not even the debate, the original topic was the Prius V was going to stop being produced. They sell enough of them around the world and California to make up the difference, it's a mistake by Toyota. End of story.
     
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  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Alright, back on topic!
     
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Been using this site for news, but it also posts Brent and WTI prices; Texas is lower.
    Ed Wallace's Inside Automotive
    Toyota isn't even selling a thousand Prius v's a month in the US. That includes sales already happening in California. Offering it in just Ca isn't going to result in more sales

    Bringing a car to market costs money; making the model comply with local laws, various regulation testing, dealer training, etc. Toyota might save some on the things based on regional size, like the dealer training, not on others when it comes to offering the car just in California as oppose to the entire country.

    Compliance plug ins are a different story. The car companies face fines for not offering them or selling enough. There is no such incentive for offering the v with Toyota's other hybrids available.

    The new Prius v will do fine in the rest of the world. They get a three seat row version, and that car class does well, because the rest of the world doesn't want US sized minivans.
     
  18. egg_salad

    egg_salad Active Member

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    Perhaps we are nearing the end of specialized chassis for hybrid vehicles? The Prius "liftback"/Prime and the Prius C are the only two vehicles I can think of that use dedicated chassis. Everyone else seems to be designing their new chassis to take multiple powertrains - i.e. gas/hybrid/EV. It has to be cheaper than making a separate vehicle just to be a hybrid.

    In the UK, for example, there is no Prius C, there is simply a Yaris hybrid. It effectively does the exact same thing as a Prius C does, without the additional costs of a dedicated hybrid chassis.

    It almost doesn't make sense to build a dedicated hybrid chassis any more.
     
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  19. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    The Prius Lift/Pack / Prime uses the TNGA chassis, the same as the 2018 Camry & Corolla, among others. It is not purpose built only for Hybrids. It is specifically designed to be modular to reduce manufacturing costs.

    Toyota New Global Architecture - Wikipedia

    TNGA
     
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  20. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    We should lean hard to eliminate platform laws or at least open them a little, then the
    v
    Could continue to be sold at a profit in low volumes and not have to waste 10’s of millions of $$$ to crash the things, at a minimum we should have emission and crash test reciprocity with first world countries on such things as economy cars.

    Our current Reagan era gray market laws have no place in a modern country; as it stands that and our crash test laws only hinder creativity and progress,
    one major blunder was when our car makers sent US homologized car models certain our version would exceed the Euro spec car in their crash tests and failed miserably.

    This goes to show our current standards have more to do with market protection than safety and should be changed to bring choice back into the market
     
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