Prius vs TDI

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ May 19 2007, 05:59 PM) [snapback]445794[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the info, that's about what I had remembered. Cleaner, but not as clean as hybrids like the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ May 19 2007, 09:10 PM) [snapback]445972[/snapback]</div>

The Polo Bluemotion uses a modified version of the 3-cylinder 1.4-liter TDI diesel engine in the conventional Polo to produce the same power output—59 kW (79 hp)—and torque—195 Nm—but with a reduction in fuel consumption of 11% (0.5 liters/100km) to 3.9 liters/100km (60 mpg US).

Emissions of CO2 drop by 13% from 119 g/km to 103 g/km.

From Green Car Congress, it's not apples to apples, since the horsepower is less (seems to have a lot of torque though), and the car is more like the size of the Honda Fit.

 

There have been several studies recently concluding that a Prius's net energy cost is so bad it is better for the environment to purchase a base civic or vista or some other basic small displacement gas car.</span>[/b][/u] :blink:

<span style="font-family:Impact">PLEASE READ:
Prius's real energy cost

So in conclusion, I'm not against hybrids. I was thrilled when mayor Bloomberg announced his plans for NYC cabs. Hybrids will reduce point-pollution significantly. They are a wonderful solution for a city driver as no fuel is wasted idling and the energy is harnessed in all those frequent stops.

But hybrids are not a solution. Conservation of the number of miles we drive and how we drive is the key. Both the TDi and prius are a step in the right direction.

The diesel is right for me. The prius is right for others.
I enjoy tinkering, many don't. I love the driving experience a prius does not offer. I drive a lot of highway were a TDI shines. I love the high resale value and the undisputed longevity.

I hope this post is helpful. Any comments are welcome. Any errors you note I would love to hear. These are my thoughts on the debate.

 

Hi eb1243,

Please please please read up on what you are talking about, before you make comments on here. You will find that Prius Chat is full of people who will find your large formant comment just another ignoramous spewing the same ol media hyped BS. And then wont even bother to read the rest. This is based on solid well thought out science and technology. As many of us are professional scientists, engineers, college level educators, doctors and airline/military professional pilots, and are well informed (unlike yourself).

ALL reputable serious research organisations either refute the CNW Research reports, or comment that CNW's work is so silly they wont even waste their time (Argonne National Labs). There are litterly hundreds of posts on this site on CNW Research. Please use the search function.

Which leads me to MY conclusion - Neat formating - Totally Useless, because you did NOT do your research.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

Good for you. I just want to point out that the PDF file that you linked to about the Hummer vs. Prius has been debunked thoroughly. You can find many threads on it if you use the search function and you will likely receive some hostile comments because people are sick of it.

I would have considered a TDI, but

a. Not available new in Calif

b. very hard to find used in Calif

c. GF once owned a 79 VW Rabbit and now believes they are all POS

d. VW not exactly known for the best reliability. I really like the signature somewhere on this board by a former TDI owner:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ May 24 2007, 09:10 PM) [snapback]449483[/snapback]</div>

Get a life man.



I tried to show pros and cons of diesel versus hybrid. I looked at the name of the thread read the entire thing and made comments. I don't care if what I said had been discussed in other threads, it was relevent to this thread.

I do not think a hummer is better for the environment than a Prius. The CNW study is a small part of the PDF.

Besides the CNW study that was indirectly mentioned, please cut the inflated ego stuff and tell me what else is incorrect about what I said.

 

Just my 2cents. If I were you, I would stay away from VWs. I've owned a Jetta now for 7 years and it goes to to the shop outside of regular maintenance at least twice a year. Repair cost range from $100-$1200.

VWs are fun to drive, they have good build quality, but the electrical parts (mainly sensors) and some other parts just aren't reliable over long periods of time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 06:50 PM) [snapback]449505[/snapback]</div>

The CNW part takes up a large portion of that pdf actually. From what I've just read the majority of that pdf has been debunked.

In all there are good parts to your original post and being an avid drag racer and fairly fond of turbos I can agree with some of it, especially getting into the biodiesel part. Ultimately we are taking steps in the right direction but personal cars in general are not the way to go, publis mass transit is. Whether it be a TDI with updated emissions equipment and new formula fuel or a Prius, you're still doing better than the guy who refuses to stop commuting in his gas guzzler.

Overall you didn't do too bad presenting your opinions for a first post. Welcome to PriusChat.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]449505[/snapback]</div>

So, according to your statement, the "heart of your argument" is that several studies have concluded "that a Prius's net energy cost is so bad it is better for the environment to purchase a base civic or vista or some other basic small displacement gas car." Other than the CNW study (the only one you sited, which you now seem to be retreating from) what studies?

Glad you like your TDI. My Passat was a POS and I'm happy to be rid of it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mick @ May 24 2007, 10:21 PM) [snapback]449522[/snapback]</div>

I said studies. What I should have said was all these articles I see. There are a lot of them. Pictures of a barren dead landscape with "where prius's are born"

You can see why this looks bad to the average non-prius owner?? The articles I speak of similar to the PDF: They usually use the CNW survey as the kicker and point out other probably factual points (such as each battery travels 10,000+ miles before it ends up in the Prius) but use the CNW as their base. I think the CNW has a very interesting idea and studies a very very important factor in any up and coming fuel saver (energy put in) but really messed up the numbers to make hybrids look especially bad. I'd like to see a credible study looking at the same "dust to dust"

I suspect the Prius will indeed be up there in energy put in. Logic tells me a simple compact small displacement gasoline car (standard transmission, limited gadgets, no LCD screens, no battery packs etc) achieving 40 mpg will be lower overall than a Prius. But as for a hummer, escalade, etc being better for the environment, BS


You had a Passat TDI?!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ May 24 2007, 10:25 PM) [snapback]449529[/snapback]</div>

It would be useless because the Prius's times would change drastically depending on conditions and car's battery state. Right?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

You don't know many Prius owners, I take it. I know you'll find this shocking, but not everybody is looking for a car made for zipping around "the twisties." There aren't even any roads like that around where I live, anyway.

For me, the Prius is a step up from my old Ford Focus: It's fun to drive, it has at least as good acceleration, more interior room, it's probably way more reliable (only had it a month and a half so far, but one of the reasons we got it was because we'd poured twice as much in repairs into the Focus as my wife's Camry, which was three years older) and, go figure, I like the way it looks (hey, to each his own, right?). Plus, of course, the far superior mileage and lower emissions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adamg @ May 24 2007, 10:44 PM) [snapback]449540[/snapback]</div>

No, I'm mostly 60 mph in the right lane people flying past me not zipping around the twisties. I feel more secure knowing my car has handling abilities for emergency situations and, yeah, I have fun once and a while.

Yeah I realized that was a mistake shortly after I entered it. My point there wasn't that Prius owners only buy the car for fuel economy but that that is the main selling point of the car (which I appear to still be wrong by your post) while in comparison to TDI owners, many of whom are more interested in longevity and performance than economy and emissions.

Keep the corrections coming!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 09:39 PM) [snapback]449534[/snapback]</div>

So all of your studies are based on the CNW? In short, the debunking points out that:

1. ALL car parts travel all over the world, not just hybrid batteries.
2. The pictures in CNW are of a mine area which was devastated decades before hybrids, and is actually making an ecological comeback.
3. The majority of emissions for ANY vehicle occur in driving, not in production.

Wrong. Someone else can help me out here with numbers, but I have NEVER detected the state of battery charge when needing to drive aggressively. I think the reason is that the battery never goes below a certain point before recharging, so there is always some oomph left. Plus, if you are driving with the ICE running, but NOT accelerating, then the battery is recharging. Even when you are accelerating, the engine makes electricity, which then turns the motor. Therefore, even with NO battery juice, the motor increases power or whatever.

 

If you looked into the articles you would know that those pictures are 20 years old. The nickel that goes into Prius batteries are a tiny fraction of the mines total production with most of the production going to produce stainless steel. Also, any strip mine is going to look like that regardless if it is nickel, iron, copper, zinc, coal, stone, etc. Do you look at your driveway and say "my driveway caused a giant hole in the ground"?

quote name='eb1243' ]
You can see why this looks bad to the average non-prius owner?? The articles I speak of similar to the PDF: They usually use the CNW survey as the kicker and point out other probably factual points (such as each battery travels 10,000+ miles before it ends up in the Prius) but use the CNW as their base. [/quote]

I can see why they would look bad, but they are preying on a uninformed public. The components for the battery may very well travel 10K miles, but that is pretty standard is today's global automotive supply chain. I work for a company that makes transmissions. We buy parts from all over the world; US, Japan, China, India, Brazil, Mexico, UK, Czech Republic, Italy, Romania, etc. We also sell our transmissions to companies all over the world. So it is very possible for us to sell a transmission to a company in Japan that has a component ship from Japan to the US and then back to Japan. It is an incredibly inefficient way to do business but completely standard. What the CNW study has done has taken a component in the Prius, pointed out the miles traveled, but made it sound as if this is something out of the ordinary that only happens with Prius parts.

As you can see from my signature I have both a Prius and a TDI. I like them both but the Prius is the first step toward the future of automobiles, the TDI is the past. Electric drives are the future.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ May 24 2007, 11:18 PM) [snapback]449558[/snapback]</div>

That's weird I was just reading the "what annoys you most thread" and a guy was saying how much it annoyed him that his car's performance was so different all the time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 25 2007, 09:54 AM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

This is wrong number.
Your Jetta TDI is TIER 1 category and emits a lot of NOx, 1.25 g/mile level.
Prius is PZEV category and is 0.02 g/mile NOx level, so your NOx score is 6250% worse.
Also, PM emission is 0.10 g/mile vs 0.01 g/mile, 1000% worse.
Using biodiesel does same thing.

The 2001 Jetta TDI is out of date, and they could not sell it in California last year and in all 50 states this year unless the vehicle is certified as Tier 2 Bin 5.

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ May 24 2007, 08:18 PM) [snapback]449558[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure this is 100% accurate. Durring daily driving I have notice times when the car felt much more peppy but this is just my seat-O'-the-pants meter testing. I have tested my Prius at the drag strip and it's numbers were all over the place depending on temperatures due to hot-lapping the car. I've had a low time of 17.6 and a high time of 18.3. I am a fairly experienced drag racer and I understand how to drive consistantly and there was nothing I was doing to cause such a variation in ET. To be fair I did make a total of 14 passes that day and a lot of them where back to back which is when I started to see the ETs get erratic and basically turn to crap. lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 24 2007, 11:50 PM) [snapback]449653[/snapback]</div>

I wonder if deep staging would benefit the prius?

On the topic at hand, being a Prius Owner and a volksfolk, some of you Prius folk are not being very nice!

The most useful means of comparing vehicles on their energy efficiency is the total fossil energy input per mile. This quantity is a combination of the fossil energy balance for the fuel itself (FEB), the energy density of the fuel in Btu/gallon (ED), and the fuel efficiency of the vehicle in miles per gallon (FE). The total fossil energy input per mile then becomes:
Fossil Energy Input per Mile = _____Energy Density_______
Fuel Efficiency * Fossil Energy Balance
The fossil energy balance is used since it gives a better comparison of how efficiently we use fossil fuels, and the net CO2 emissions (since those only come from fossil fuels). For biofuels, as mentioned, the energy inputs could all come from non-fossil sources, but for this analysis, it is more meaningful to assume they come from fossil sources.
The TDI beats the Prius in this aspect, assuming it is running on B20 or B100