Questions regarding the eco-friendliness of the Prius and the business ethics of Toyota

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 23 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]483451[/snapback]</div>

We all seem to be getting different results. It could also be the weather. On my test last week going up and down the steep Utah mountains I got 50.3 mpg average and on relatively flat Nevada surface I was getting about 56 mpg. All this doing the speed limit of 75 mph.

The 62 mpg I got on relatively flat surface doing 45 to 55 mph, so that's closer to your conditions. At one time my average MPG over 30 miles got to 72 mpg.

 

Maybe the jury is out. I just believe in responding to posters unless they are being nasty or
rude (even if the truth might be, well, out there), not so much to argue as to educate others
who read this. As I said there are many non-posters in forums. My understanding is that there
are more non-posters than posters. My point is you respond to let OTHERS know that what he
is saying isn't true. Even trollers can bring out good points.

I just don't think you can read someone's motivation. Why does an anti-Mac person post in a
Mac group is a similar problem. why would someone take the trouble to register and post
in a Prius group when he seems to dislike them? IMO, you go get a life and post in a Vw group
or something. But maybe secretly he wants a Prius and is trying to convince himself. So I just
try not judging the motivations-- though they seem odd to me.

And yes, I agree that there are other environmmentally sound (or shall we say more environmentally
sound decisions). Heck it would be better to walk or bike, if you could. (Seems dubious
in my situation.) Communities that were walkable, bikeable might be better still. More public transportation,
that sort of thing.

So is Prius the ubergreen thing in greenness. NO. Is it more green than several alternatives. Yes. Is
it the best thing for everybody. No. Is it the best thing for some. Yes. Is Toyota more green than Ford, GM, etc. Yes. But I agree they would need to get out of bed with big 3 to have my more undying respect.
Stop lobbying against all the clean air stuff,etc.

Would hydrogen be cleaner-- theoretically yes but it is so theoretical that it doesn't even count as an alternative. Contact me back in 2030 or so.


BTW, if some people are so upset with the post, don't you all have moderators???
I think the moderator decides what is within acceptable range and what isn't, imo. This isn't entirely free speech as such, so if he breaks the rules he goes. (Usually gets warned nicely first or second) then the post is pulled. At least that's the way I understand it.) If it really is just a bait thread then the mods decide and talk to him nicely first.


--des
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Jul 22 2007, 10:42 PM) [snapback]483391[/snapback]</div>

 

as far as the milage goes I can attest that I have been consistantly getting 53mpg through out my 6 months with my new prius (average speed 65-75mph)

I have been able to achieve 60mpg with my fathers 2004 prius doing my 35 mile one way commute though new york highways.. (average speed 60-65)

my old camry couldnt even muster 27mpg on the same commute. what can be said about that??

now if you believe that bio disel is the wave of the future, think twice. If you think that hydrogen is the wave of the future .. think again

it would take us at least 20 years from now to convert our current infrastructure to supply hydrogen not to mention how to produce it. The answer is really under our noses.. electricity.

granted it takes some fossel fuels to produce electricity, but there are other more natural ways of producing it (wind, water to name a few)

the prius is a step in the right direction and possibly the best solution for right now.. we will just have to wait and see. who knows .. maybe we will all be driving electric cars in the next 10 years

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 06:16 PM) [snapback]482484[/snapback]</div>

The Prius EPA numbers are not overestimates. My friend's Jetta is smaller and less comfortable. Biodiesel still emits particulates. I know because I was stuck behind one during the rally. Prius should seat 5.

Conclusion: Intentional fact omission. Verdict: Troll.

 

Ha! Well I tend to be an easy grader (h.s. teacher in my real life). So I guess that goes for trolling too.

Otoh, I think we are led to believe that since the EPA is changing the way they figure mileage that it is being done *because* of hybrids . That is patently not the case, but the way they are figuring it is not really "real car mileage". My guess is due to the gauges that LOTS of people will get better than the new EPA figures which I think will be more like 48 mpg-- it makes people aware of their actual driving behavior and what they are doing. But it would be best to say that BOTH figures are overestimates (even though some people really do get better than 60 mpg. I am guessing though that the mpg on the Jetti is quite definitely an overestimate for all but the most dedicated of hypermilers.

I noticed when the press explains how they figure miles per gallon about 80% of the time they mention the Prius. Funny thing. It will change every single figure for every car on the road.

Note blog with what appears to be its obligatory mention of the Prius:
But it does mention that this applies to all cars.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/10/new-mil...o-be-announced/

Another point is that the various discussions fo the Prius in the press tend to compare the cost of the Prius with the cost of the Corolla. It's a silly comparision-- but one that one reads so often it is a cliche.
Another thing is the stuff for the biodiesel and ethanol as if all cars could be run on it and that it could actually replace oil, and the discussion of hydrogen as if it is right around the corner. Or that we do an either or thing on alternative technologies vs an and/too.

So I'm wondering how much of what our "friend" here mentions is based on some of the stuff he is reading, that seems to always mention the Prius. And if he is reading it, you can pretty well bet most of the populous is reading it as well-- blather though it may be.


--des


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Jul 23 2007, 09:23 PM) [snapback]483868[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Jul 23 2007, 07:23 PM) [snapback]483868[/snapback]</div>

Jim,

Is that you??

Seriously though. I've been reading this thread with some interest and have been thinking about a response. So here goes....

There isn't a panacea... yet.

Diesels have been around for decades and there have been great strides in that technology's development. Crop based biodiesel seems very unlikely to be a solution in and of itself. Biodiesel made from waste is a niche. It's a nice way for fuel nerds to make their own fuel. Keep in mind though that it's not for everyone (even if we had enough of it, which we most defintely don't). There are some pretty nasty intermediate chemicals in the biodiesel brewing process. Until algae based bioD is economical, biodiesel, like all biofuels will have a large environmental footprint. Palm oil production is causing deforestation and the outright slaughter of Orangutans in Malaysia. It's not sustainable.

Hybrid technology is in its infancy. The beauty of hybrid technology is that it's spinning off all kinds of new ideas and developments. This is important because petrol is a dead end. The ICE is probably doomed because it's so inefficient. Diesels included.

That doesn't mean that diesels don't have a place. They do. And they'll continue to have a place. However, the partial electrification of the transportation sector is critical if we're going to create a sustainable economic
future. Relying on increasing scare and low quality fossil fuels, located in geopolitically unstable regions is a recipe for disaster. The sooner we abandon that way of living the better.

Hydrogen is vaporware at the moment. There are numerous hurdles to overcome and it seems very likely that battery technology will become "good enough" long before FCVs are clogging our highways. Just look at the morphology of FCVs over the last couple of years. They're now plugins with substantial battery capacity! Don't get me wrong. I think that doing the research necessary for a hydrogen economy is a good idea. Why? Because it is advancing basic science and there's no telling what sort of fruits it will bear. I don't think a hydrogen economy will be one of them, but we're going to learn an awful lot in the process. We might even be able to apply some of it towards building better batteries! The problem with hydrogen is that it takes a lot of energy to separate it from other compounds. It takes around 50 kWh of electricity to electrolyze 1 KG of hydrogen (at STP). You can push an EV a long ways on that 50 kWh! Why make the H2 in the first place? It's really pretty inefficient. We need more efficiency if we're going to have any hope of sustaining 9 billion people on this planet (it's dubious even then) without massive wars over resources.

The bottom line... The Prius is the most eco-friendly mass produced car on the road today. It's a long ways from perfect and is insufficient in and of itself. Like others have said, it's a step in the right direction. It's a good step, but just one of many that we need to take.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Jul 23 2007, 09:23 PM) [snapback]483868[/snapback]</div>

:lol: yeah, and a rather verbose one at that :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(quixotequest @ Jul 21 2007, 01:28 AM) [snapback]482666[/snapback]</div>

if you'd rather have a TDI Volkswagen, buy it. You won't hurt our feelings so go for it! B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jul 24 2007, 04:04 AM) [snapback]484052[/snapback]</div>

But buy the extended service package - you'll need it. I'd invest in the 50 mile AAA towing package too, just to be on the safe side...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jul 24 2007, 05:04 AM) [snapback]484052[/snapback]</div>

I wish it were that easy. Finding a TDI Jetta wagon for sale at all is tough. Finding one, when you do find one, that isn't priced as high as a new TDI sedan is rare. I may reconsider looking for one when the new ones come out in 08 or 09, though.

Till then, though, I went ahead with the Prius. Grandpa cut us a deal we couldn't refuse: got a 05 silver package #6 with 8200 miles for $18k. That was a trade-in price, so we felt pretty lucky to save $2-3k. (He also stayed with a new Prius 'cause he wanted all the newer features.) So like it or not I'll probably be involved with the PC forae. But I'll still stay involved in VWVortex, if that makes you happy I'm liking the Prius a lot though. If I can get the seats improved some way it is a pretty darn good car.

My thought is that the Prius is a great car but not without some faults. The same goes for VW's TDIs. But I think both companies are advancing the greener car movement. As such the subject is worthy of respect and civility, but also worthy of healthy skepticism and debate.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mad Hatter @ Jul 24 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]484167[/snapback]</div>

Touché! My Passat has been more expensive to operate than I had planned but it has been very reliable, too. My two friends with TDIs have had a better history than I've had. The Passat has been a blast to drive. And since I got the 1.8 Turbo, it has been very friendly to performance mods. But no matter how you slice it, it still has had a few expensive problems that I end up rationalizing away due to an otherwise excellent ownership experience.

But if all someone wants to drive is an appliance, then Toyota is certainly the winner I had to get that dig in because now I am both a Toyota and VW owner.

 

We could always try nuclear powered cars. Just think of all the money and weight saved by getting rid of those annoying seat belts.

Seriously though, I have been following this thread and learning a lot from both sides.

I agree Bio-diesel is not free if you can find it. I have not seen it sold at many places and I am not about to start a distillery in my backyard. I do like the carbon-neutral concept. It would be nice if that could be incorporated into the Prius (assuming there is an infrastructure created also)

I thought about getting the TDI, since some of my family have them. However, the wife did not like the diesel smell they seemed to emit.

I thought diesel vehicles were exempt from the emissions standards. I had a Diesel F250 once and I do not remember having to get any emissions tests done on it. Although it was funny to see the vehicle inspector's face when he had to test my Prius' emissions (in 06 I scraped off the wrong sticker and had to get it tested to get a new safety sticker). He kept asking me to turn on the car and I told him it was on. lol Even drove around the parking lot in elec mode.

You cannot compare a Yaris to a Prius. That is also like saying PV solar panels are not worth getting since it is cheaper to get power from other sources. However, I would like to think I am looking past the immediate $ and looking at the long term environment.

We have had our Prii, Priuses, ... whatever 2 cars for the last 2 years and our avg MPG have stayed consistent. My wife is hardly a conservative driver and avg 50 MPG. I on the other hand probably make Grandma look like a dragster but at 67 MPG OPEC can "eat my shorts."

If you really want to be green the solution would be to get one of those Rav4 EVs, but at $57k used even I am hesitant to get one.

 

To the OP. You are confusing SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil) and Biodiesel.

SVO is just what it sounds like, straight vegetable oil, usually waste oil, that is heated and burned. In order to burn SVO you must install a kit in the vehicle to add additional filters, fuel lines, and an additional fuel tank that is heated. Newer TDI's are NOT better for SVO, they have had injector clogging issues. The TDI PD for example has had issues when converted to SVO. Old mechanical injected diesel work best for SVO conversions but the 1999 to 2004 TDI's work OK as well.

Biodiesel is a refined product. It is SVO that is processed to remove the glycerin. It will burn in a diesel vehicle without conversions. However, no manufacturer will warranty use of more than B5 blends in their vehicles in the U.S. Biodiesel will work fine at low temperatures just like petrodiesel as long as anti-gel additives are used. This is not different than when burning petro diesel.


To the others:

Biodiesel Emissions: Yes, burning biodiesel released CO2 but this CO2 was collect by the plant from the atmosphere and then in release back into the atmosphere. Hence burning biodiesel or other biofuels is carbon neutral.

VW TDI's: My TDI has been extremely reliable over the last 140K miles. I have only had one none maintenance item that needed replacement and that was the glow plug harness and cost $50. This would be the equivalent to changing the spark plug wires on a gasoline vehicle.

My TDI has also consistently outperformed the EPA estimate of 35/39/45 mpg. As you can see my mileage has averaged just over 45mpg since I started keeping track at the beginning of the year. This is in mostly suburban driving. When driving on the highway, the TDI consistently gets between 52 to 55 mpg at 75mph with the A/C on.

 

Tripp, this is a very good post and you state your points much more succinctly than I do (which I respect). I agree on all counts, including on hydrogen research (though i think they should be honest about it!!)
I also like the picture!

I think another point is that hybrids offer a very good bridge technology to both plug in hybrids and pure solar.


--des
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 24 2007, 02:30 AM) [snapback]484019[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 22 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]483382[/snapback]</div>

This proves you are trolling. If you would read the other threads on the site, you would know that EVERYONE gets better or at least consistent mpg as the car ages. And none of us have ever used injector cleaner. You haven't seen it with your own eyes. You don't OWN a Prius.

Bottom line here folks, the OP still hasn't come up with a widely available car that is more fuel-efficient than the Prius. The Diesel's come close, but they don't beat the Prius.

 

I'm confused. How is biodiesel carbon nuetral? Is this taking into account the energy used for the production of the fertilizers and pesticides that are required to treat the plantings, the energy required to clean and transport the water that irrigates the land, the energy used by the equipment to harvest the plantings and the energy required to refine said plantings? I'm not seeing the potential for this to be carbon neutral. Explanation, please.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Jul 25 2007, 09:45 AM) [snapback]484686[/snapback]</div>

The energy balance (BTU in vs BTU out) is positive, so the energy consumed in the production of the fuels taken into account. That's the theory, anyways. In practice I'm sure the energy balance is skewed towards the positive because it's hard to quantify all of the inputs accurately. It's probably close, but there seems to be endless debate about the energy balance of bio fuels.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Jul 25 2007, 08:45 AM) [snapback]484686[/snapback]</div>

Oh, and let's not forget the slashing and burning of rainforest in Malaysia, to plant the palms to make the palm oil that biodiesel production needs.

This is the travesty of biodiesel that really, truly, completely p*sses me off.
They built a M***F*** biodiesel plant here, where I live, on the promise that it would create jobs while saving the environment... but, if you talk to them, they don't care where they get the base oils from, as long as it's cheap... so they will buy palm oil from Malaysa. They will buy corn oils, soy oils, which takes food crops away from people.

The only good thing that they could do, is use up all the GMO corn and soy for biodiesel, and stop feeding it to animals and people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 25 2007, 10:52 AM) [snapback]484692[/snapback]</div>

Did some poking around and it does appear that biodiesel is pretty near carbon neutral as the plants absorb 3 times more co2 during growth than they emit when combusted. This is great. However, it's not a sustainable energy source if we all care to continue eating food. If we could cultivate every square inch of our land with biodiesel crops in the US, we'd still not have enough biodiesel fuel to supply our average national energy requirements for our autos. Or, we can rely on the sources you've indicated earlier, which is to devastate habitat in other countries so that we're able to continue our traditional agriculture.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 25 2007, 11:06 AM) [snapback]484702[/snapback]</div>

agreed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 25 2007, 10:06 AM) [snapback]484702[/snapback]</div>

In our area, they get the base oils mostly from soy. But they also use rapeseed. In Europe rapeseed is the more desireable base oil. It is here, too, it is just that rapeseed is not as easily cultivated in various environs as well as soy.

I wouldn't worry about taking food away from people, though. If we drastically reduced raising inefficient meat crops like beef, we could easily feed far more people with the equivalent resources devoted to soy or other plant protein crops.

What does aggravate me, and I completely agree with you: as consumers we are not sold --nor do most investigate -- the whole "environmental footprint" picture. Given the prevalent American/Wal-Mart "the price I pay is everything" mentality, if biodiesel became a sustainable and significant chunk of energy resource (albeit not the sole energy resource) that price competition will lead biodiesel businesses, if unchecked, to practice environmentally insensitive production. The net environmental footprint could still be huge. I've had people, after I got my Prius, say, "so you've joined the green movement now?" I certainly don't mind the association, but I still feel it is best to reduce overall driving as the first course of lowering one's personal environmental impact. That first step alone is enough to keep most Americans from doing anything. Very few are willing to burden any inconvenience to live a more green life. That irritates me more that debating the merits between biodiesel, hybrid or electric energy propulsion.