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Regen Braking Observations

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by adrianblack, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I just got back from a session of capturing data and graphing it.

    - Regen braking can run at full strength down to 7mph but then it just tapers off until it is 0nm at 2mph. The transition is smooth but you are still generating power below 7mph to 2mph.

    - As it tapers off at 7mph, friction ramps up at the same rate.

    - Regen smoothly ramps up when you first request to stop. If you push the pedal quickly, the ECU actually uses the friction brakes for a moment to begin braking and then transitions to regen by ramping off the friction as regen ramps up.

    - The car will never use regen if you start to brake under 7mph, you use pure friction.

    - Regen is always used up to the maximum (usually around 768NM) and the ECU will supplement it with any friction needed if you request more stopping force.

    - Shifting to neutral while braking does not instantly kill regen, it actually ramps off as friction brakes ramp This takes about 400ms to happen.

    - Traction control is interesting ... the computer doesn't mess around and as soon as it want to reign in wheel spin, it applies a high level of pressure to the offending wheel. Think of it this way: in normal driving and braking, I never needed more than 0.76V of pressure at the wheels. To stop wheelspin, the computer applied over 4V worth of pressure

    [​IMG]

    Edit: SGII XGAUGE for friction brake voltage coming soon
    Edit2: Both of these examples have a small burst of friction braking at the start, but this is not the case every time. If you smoothly apply pressure to the brake pedal, there is no friction at all until under 7mph. (Of you push harder on the pedal...)
     
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  2. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Very interesting observations. How are you capturing the data to plot it?
     
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  3. mad-dog-one

    mad-dog-one Prius Enthusiast

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    Is this after the brake ECU reflash?
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Dumb question time ...
    700 Nm is 700 watts, right ?

    That sounds awfully low for max regen
     
  5. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I'm running on the stock firmware still -- so I'll be able to see if there are any changes after I get the reflash.

    Spiderman: "A big bag of goodies" is all I can say for the data captures.
     
  6. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I'm not sure -- I think to calculate power (Watts) you have to also factor in RPM ...

    Watts Calculator

    When braking you can see the AMPs going into the battery -- and I've seen 80+ amps when hitting 768NM. The batteries run at around 260V, so 80amps * 260V = 20,080 watts...

    I think the Nm rating is more to due with braking force being applied, not so much how much power is being generated.
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Thanks, perhaps I see my error ..

    At 60 mph (27 meters/second), one meter is advanced in 0.037037037 seconds.
    So power, or work/time, is 768 Nm/0.037 seconds, or about 20 kW.
     
  8. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    Here is something interesting: the computer applies the brakes briefly when you are parked and the ICE is starting or stopping.
     
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  9. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Exactly. For the non-engineers and non-physicists in the group, Nm is Force * Distance, which means it is a measure of work or energy. W is a measure of power, and power is work for a period of time, or work/time.

    Tom
     
  10. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    That voltage figure would have to come from a single sensor,
    correct, as the third-gen seems to *not* have a pressure sensor
    per wheel like the second-gen? One immediately wonders how only
    one wheel receives pressure leaving the others alone at all,
    unless I'm reading the hydraulic map all wrong.
    .
    20 KW sounds right for a maximum; are you monitoring the current
    charge limit [CCL] along with this?
    .
    _H*
     
  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I am under the impression that hte G2 Prius max regen is 20kW, while the G3 bumped that up to 25+ kW. Not so ?
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Have you been able to quantify the brake pause that SSC-A0B affects.

    Bob Wilson
     
  13. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I don't know the exact specs on the G3. I recall hearing that the G3 has more powerful regen, but I'll have to defer to one of the G3 owners.

    Tom
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    If anyone can find an online copy of '2010_Prius_Product_Info_FINAL.pdf', posted on Toyota's website last March, it lists:

    Battery Peak Horsepower Rating 36 hp/27kw
     
  15. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    It has sensors for each wheel, but has a handy metric where (I presume) you see the max pressure of any wheel. I'm not sure exactly how it works... but that's what I was looking at.

    I have the PID for Charge/discharge max but don't know how to figure out the math. But one reading I have from the car I know is right shows 23.5kw charge limit and 20.5kw draw limit.

    7E2 21 98 is the PID....
     
  16. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I will try to figure out the MTH for the SGII so we will know better. It's quite possible it can go up to 25 or above if the battery SoC is low.
     
  17. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I will try to get down to the dealer maybe next week for the update, then I'll do some more testing to and logging to see if anything changes. So busy at work these days...
     
  18. jcsweeney

    jcsweeney New Member

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    Great data!!!

    If I squint a little, it does appear there is a deceleration pause in the middle graph right at 7mph (the velocity line has a short flat section).

    Am I overreading the graphs?

    I recently purchased a 2010 which has not had the brake reflash done. I'm holding off in case we need to capture more before/after data. Contact me offline if I can be of any assistance. I have access to 8 channel DAC and could hook it up if need be. Contact me offline if I can be of any assistance.

    Thanks, John
     
  19. dzaky

    dzaky New Member

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  20. dzaky

    dzaky New Member

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    Power (Watt) = Torque (N.m) * Speed (rad/s)
    1 rad/s = 9.55414 rpm