Religion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marjflowers @ Apr 22 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]243628[/snapback]</div>

I would respectfully disagree with the above statement for it would make the God of the Bible as a liar. Hebrews 6:18 says that "it is impossible for God to lie".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 22 2006, 09:35 AM) [snapback]243655[/snapback]</div>

God didn't write the bible, humans did. It is a collection of stories, lessons, parables passed down from generation to generation, many if not most of them verbally. Any story passed down gets embellished and modified over time. In its written form, there have been the political and social modifications to the bible which further change, exclude and refine the message according to the will of the dominant authority of the time. I agree with Marj, it is impossible to say as fact whether all characters are real or not. Most likely they were, but the message and lessons that lie beneath it are what's important to subscribe to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Begreen @ Apr 22 2006, 12:57 PM) [snapback]243672[/snapback]</div>

But THIS is the message.
2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."
2 Peter 1:20-21 "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were CARRIED ALONG BY THE HOLY SPIRIT."
Proverbs 30:5 "EVERY WORD of God proves true; he is a shield to those is take refuge in him."
Psalm 12:6 "The words of the LORD are PURE WORDS, like silver refined in a furnace in the ground, purified seven times."
Matthew 4:4 "But he answered, 'It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God.'""
Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the WORDS of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 22 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]243693[/snapback]</div>

Arguing that a book is 100% correct by reading words from the book? Do you not see a conflict there?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 22 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]243693[/snapback]</div>

From the mouth of God is key. Again, the bible contains a lot of old stories and lessons interpreted by man. Sometimes they are just a recounting of history and customs. I doubt they are from the mouth of God. And some are just myths. Do you really believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and lived inside for 3 days? There are a lot of contradictions in the bible. How did they get in there except by the fact that one POV or story changed over time?
there are a lot of examples, here are a few:

2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." but 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

1 Sam 17:50: So David prevailed over the Philistine (Goliath) with a sling and a stone, striking down the Philistine and killing him; there was no sword in David’s hand.
But 2 Sam 21:19: Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan, son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..." but Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"

Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." but John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 21 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]243434[/snapback]</div>

The most DANGEROUS person in the world today is a person who does not rightly divide the Bible. There are pre-"state of grace" issues and issues during the "state of Grace". There are rules for Jews and rules for Christians.

All your arguments are from ignorance. Sorry!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 22 2006, 09:56 AM) [snapback]243601[/snapback]</div>

Abu dabi nin commpppoooo qwaa qwaa- I apparently am NOT in my right mind. Which mind am I in then?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 22 2006, 07:43 AM) [snapback]243616[/snapback]</div>

So are you saying that every book whose characters are historical figures, must be 100% correct? War and Peace has Napoleon and Alexander in it, who are real figures, and it has some of their battles in it, which were actually fought, and the outcome of the war really was what the book says it was. But it's a fictional book for all that, mixing historical fact with fiction.

The Bible has some historical figures in it, and many real places are mentioned, as well as some historical events. But it is a work of fiction for all that. As an example, the exodus apparently never happened, since the Jews are supposed to have passed through many places that were occupied at the time by peoples who left voluminous written records, and not one of those societies has left even one single mention of an enormous mass of wanderers passing through its country. Similar examples are legion.

I cannot get over the propensity of fundies to argue, "The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." And, "The Bible is the inerrant Word of God, because the Bible says it is." And to prove both points, they quote the Bible. Do they have no clue at all about what constitutes a valid argument?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 22 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]243823[/snapback]</div>

Is speaking baby talk supposed to make some sort of a point? We could fill a very long thread with examples of common expressions whose meanings are not the literal ones. In fact, you make my point rather well: Fundies want to take every word of the Bible literally, when language is never purely literal.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 23 2006, 09:09 AM) [snapback]243964[/snapback]</div>

I'd say far-right mind.... and now thou hast taken to speaking in tongues Babble-on!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Begreen @ Apr 22 2006, 02:34 PM) [snapback]243701[/snapback]</div>

Reading from several different translations of the Bible I could find non that specifically says "whale". So I would say that I do not know for certain if it was a whale or not. But I do believe that Jonah was swallowed by a great fish. As Jesus said in Matthew 12:40-41 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up in judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here." Jesus took it as a true story so it must be true.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Begreen @ Apr 23 2006, 10:09 AM) [snapback]243977[/snapback]</div>

You quoted me, but I think you were refering to Shmika, who was the one babbling. I merely quoted him to ask if babbling was supposed to make some kind of point.

 

In a short answer: See just read this thread & all the people that think the bible is fiction, then you can see why the world is the way it is.
They dont like it when you tell them; Your gonna burn in HELL buddy, even if they do not believe in hell. it makes you think about it.......

Once youve been saved/born again christian (doesnt matter what denomination) thats it, your saved your spirit is going to heaven
on the E train...

when the day comes and your ticket is pulled, do you know where your destinations going to be? "I do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 23 2006, 12:09 PM) [snapback]243964[/snapback]</div>

Was not baby talk....was the sound of a total mental spewing gibberish....is what you implied I, and others, must be. Do fundies have more FUN????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 23 2006, 03:16 PM) [snapback]244045[/snapback]</div>

Yup, sorry, BC (before coffee).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Apr 23 2006, 07:11 PM) [snapback]244107[/snapback]</div>

Smug alert!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Begreen @ Apr 22 2006, 02:34 PM) [snapback]243701[/snapback]</div>

Reference to 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 it is clearly a manuscript error and was not in the original. Just look at translations that use a different manuscipt such as the ESV, NIV, HCSB, NLT (etc.) where there is no contradiction. And thanks for the information, I love to know the strengths and weaknesses of each translation of the Bible.
Reference to 1 Sam 17:50 and 2 Sam 21:19 the KJV and the NKJV has 2 Sam 21:19 referring to the "brother of Goliath" not Goliath. KJV "And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam." The parallel passage with a more complete description is 1 Chronicles 20:5 "And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam."
Reference to Matt 1:16 and Luke 3:23, I believe that Matthew is tracing Jesus genealogy through His earthly father Joseph and Luke is tracing His genealogy through Mary His Mother. Therefore, there is no contradiction.
Reference to Gen 32:30 and John 1:18 it has to do with what Theologians call Theophany. "It is right, therefore, to say that although God's total essence will never be able to be seen by us, nevertheless, God still shows something of himself to us through visible, created things, and especially in the person of Christ." Bible Doctrine by Wayne Grudem page 87.

 

It must be nice to be absolutely certain that you're going to live forever in a perfect world after you die.

But I can't help but wonder if the fundies are shouting so loud because they are so certain, or if they are shouting so loud because they're trying to convince themselves of something they desperately want to believe, because they simply cannot deal emotionally with the fact that we all die.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 24 2006, 09:17 AM) [snapback]244224[/snapback]</div>

I think there's at least some element of truth in this. Speaking for myself, I have often wondered why Jehovah's Witnesses, in particular, seem to feel their beliefs would be strengthened if they could convert others. Insecurity? Points for winning another soul? Earning their own ticket into heaven? Maybe next time they come knocking, I'll ask.

Death is a big scary concept, and it doesn't surprise me that people think of ways to ease the fears. Heaven is a very comforting idea. But, as I learned in philosophy classes, it's possible to be certain and still be wrong.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SirGreen @ Apr 21 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]243460[/snapback]</div>

I haven't got a clue what this even means, let alone how it answers the issues I raised in my post: that obeying man's law is often immoral, and how does one know what parts of the bible to pay attention to and which parts should be ignored, if the bible itself is the only authority?

Please clarify. In your own words, please.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 22 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]243823[/snapback]</div>

OK, so WHAT do you use to "rightly" divide the bible? Is this the Pope's job? And if it is, what does HE use?
(I'm flattered to find that I am among the most DANGEROUS people in the world - didn't know I had that kind of clout).
I am amazed that two dfferent religious sects are supposed to use different sets of rules out of the same bible. All of this indicates that there's additional educational material required beyond the bible itself - so WHAT is that material?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 22 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]243823[/snapback]</div>

Would that all arguments could be so casually dismissed. But sly squirming like that won't get you off the hook. Answer the issues and questions, or confess that you haven't got an answer. There's no shame in not being able to answer - we are all ignorant in many matters (else I wouldn't be asking questions).