Religion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Deaden @ Apr 22 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]243695[/snapback]</div>

Agree- that logic is analogous to saying that, "I can't break the law, because if I do something, that makes it legal." Only a crazy person would use logic like that- well, actually, I guess that's what the President has said in effect. And come to think of it, he's born again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Apr 23 2006, 08:11 PM) [snapback]244107[/snapback]</div>

Just to clarify... So a God of love, who does not hate will cast those who don't follow his exact process for salvation into an everlasting torture chamber? Would you do that to your children? I wouldn't.

So does that mean that once you're saved your actions no longer determine the destination? So what's more important, forcing yourself to believe in something or your actions and words? You seem to be implying that there's only one correct process and that actions themselves are not the crucial point. Without action what precisely does it mean to take Christ as your savior?

And I can find 10 muslims who KNOW that you're headed straight to hell and 10 athesists that KNOW you're just gonna be a corpse, so what's your point?

 

the prodigal son got better treatment than the one who was loyal all his life.

taking that literally, we ARE SUPPOSED to question religion and other spiritual aspects of life. it's natural for anyone who has an awareness of the world and enough of a brain to think.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 24 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]244421[/snapback]</div>

One of my favourite ministers said it was the asking of the questions that was important, not the answers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 22 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]243823[/snapback]</div>

So, should an ethnic, but non-religious Jew follow the rules for Jews? My grandparents were all Jews, which makes me a Jew. However, I don't practice or believe in the religion, and never have, so I am not a religious Jew. And I was never bar mitzvahd, so I'm not really sure where I'd stand in the eyes of a rabbi. Technically, if your mom was a Jew, you are a Jew. But how many generations of atheism does it take to break the chain? Or is it eternal? Then, to complicate matters, my ancestors wandered around northern Europe for a thousand years, from the time of the diaspora until the early part of the 20th century when they came to the U.S., and it seems unlikely that the genetic line remained purely semitic, so I probably have some Jewish and some Caucasian blood in me.

Does this mean I don't have to follow any rules? Can I follow the Taoist rules instead? I like the one that says "Ho who does nothing, leaves nothing undone." Being lazy I could come pretty close to that one. When I was poor people criticized me for being lazy, but now that I'm rich they say, Wow, you're lucky: you don't have to work; I wish I was in your shoes.

Anyway, this is important, because the rule for Jews says we're not supposed to do any work, even switch off the lights, between sundown Friday night and sundown Saturday night, and I need to know whether I'm allowed to turn the lights off on Friday night, because if not, I'll have to leave the bedroom lights off all evening so I don't have to go to bed with bright lights in my eyes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 24 2006, 02:57 PM) [snapback]244388[/snapback]</div>

For you, the questions are unanswerable, because you reject the required premise to believe that there is one true God, and jesus was said Son of God, and the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus as your saviour and there is a Hell. If you don't believe that, then NONE of my answers will be sufficient. So, there is no point to continue. BYW..what does the Pope have to do with it. That shows your ignorance of Christianity. Born again believers do not accept Catholicism.

My answer is simply, God exists, He has a plan, we are to worship Him. End of story.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 24 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]244421[/snapback]</div>

You are correct. If, just before you die, you ask forgiveness in your heart...you willbe forgiven and all will be forgotten.

God wants your soul for eternity...not your flesh for a lousy few years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 24 2006, 05:53 PM) [snapback]244488[/snapback]</div>

During the current era of Grace, Jews and Gentiles must follow only one rule to get to heaven. I was speaking about the Bible and it's reading (rightly dividing). Once Grace is over (the rapture), then the old rules will apply again (for the Jews)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 24 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]244677[/snapback]</div>

Now I'm confused. First you say there are separate rules for Jews and Christians. Now you say there is only one rule for both, but at the rapture Jews are supposed to go back to following the old rules??? So that means we couldn't eat pork before Jesus, but now we can eat pork, but then at the rapture we'll have to stop eating pork again??? Aren't you making god out to be a bit schizophrenic? Of course, I don't eat any animals, but we're talking here about what the rules are. Does the Bible actually say that at the rapture Jews have to quit eating pork again, but Christians can keep eating it?

More importantly for me, it sounds like you are saying that I am allowed to turn off the lights on Friday night, but when the rapture comes I'll have to quit turning off the lights on Friday night. You know, it's silliness like this that convinces a lot of people that religion is all poppycock.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 24 2006, 09:47 PM) [snapback]244707[/snapback]</div>

I do not believe that the Rapture is a Biblical concept. The concept describes a secret Rapture at the beginning of a supposed seven-year period of Tribulation, which will then be followed by the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ. There are a few areas and a few verses in the Bible that seem to hint a this but when read in context this fable is exposed as false.


Here are a few of the verses that some Christians rely on:


1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I write to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety! Then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail upon a woman with child. And they shall not escape.


Paul wrote in language too plain to be misunderstood, "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put o¬n incorruption, and this mortal must put o¬n immortality." (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

1) This event takes place "at the last trump," not seven years before it.

2) When this happens, "the trumpet shall sound." It will be loud, not quiet.

3) It is not the return of Jesus Christ that takes place in the twinkling of an eye. Rather, it is the changing of the bodies of believers from mortality to immortality.

4) At the same time the sudden destruction of the wicked also takes place and no where is mentioned a 7 year period and a second chance. This teaching is a fable designed to lull people into thinking they can have a second chance and another 7 years to get their act together. <_<

Thus, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 does not teach the idea of vanishing Christians at all. Rather, it reveals a loud return of Jesus Christ during the final sounding of the last trumpet and the "instant" transformation of believers into immortality at the end of the world.

Sorry.

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 25 2006, 05:35 AM) [snapback]244773[/snapback]</div>

I agree whole heartedly with you Wildkow. I would add that Jesus himself made clear that it would take place at the last day not 7 year before the last day.
John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but rise it up on the last day."
John 6:40 "For this is the will of my father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:54 "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 11:24 "Martha said to him, 'I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.'"
John 12:48 "The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge, the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 24 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]244421[/snapback]</div>

I share the same observation.

Questioning is forbidden or at least discouraged, it indicates disobedience by challenging the authority.

Questioning is also curtailed by pinpointing weaknesses in one's character as 'rebelling', 'social disfunction', 'mental disfunction'.

All these methods are tools of oppression and subjugation in a dialog with all forms of authority.

Sadly, many people are pathologically wired and seek for unquestionable form of authority, devoid of free thinking conceptualizations.

 

QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 24 2006, 03:59 PM)

the prodigal son got better treatment than the one who was loyal all his life.

taking that literally, we ARE SUPPOSED to question religion and other spiritual aspects of life. it's natural for anyone who has an awareness of the world and enough of a brain to think.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 25 2006, 10:01 AM) [snapback]244812[/snapback]</div>

Some of us Christians feel the same way concerning the religion and church of "Evolution". Questioning evolution is forbidden or at least discouraged. Questioning evolution is also curtailed by pinpointing weaknesses in one's character as 'mental disfunction'.
Sadly, many people are pathologically wired and seek for unquestionable form of authority, devoid of free thinking conceptualizations by accepting evolution as a "fact" and not as a "theory".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 25 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]244822[/snapback]</div>

Good point, Randy.

The only thing I would add is by asking what are the benefits on the part of science at large as authority to manipulate with the masses verses religious authority manipulating with the masses? We should also distinguish the authority of the doctrine, theory itself vs the organized authority of those that utilize a given doctrine or theory to their advantage, and in what way that manifests itself with any kind of impact on individual human being, positively or negatively.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 25 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]244822[/snapback]</div>

By all means, if you wish to question evolution, go right ahead. Just don't try to promote creationism (or intelligent design) in our public schools as a legitimate scientific alternative.

 

Creationists are always big on pointing out the "theory" part of evolution. Most do not understand that theory to science is not some made up crap. It is an explanation for an observation that is backed up by lots of hard evidence. The type of theory they are usually referring to is a hypothesis, which is just an explanation that does not yet have evidence to back it.

Evolution itself is a fact. Micro-evolution has been observed and is not even being debated anymore. Creatures DO evolve into other things. Just look at the yearly flu outbreaks. Why do those happen when you just got your flu shot last year? It is because the virus has gone through several evolutionary changes over the last year and is basically a new creature every year that we need to develop all new defenses against. Even macro evolution is widely considered a fact by most scientists, but is still placed in the theory category in purely scientific terms. The reason it is still a theory is not based on wheather or not it happened and is happening, but rather on the exact mechanisms it occurs.

The main problem with evolution is that fundamentalists view it as incompatible with their version of the bible so decide to try and attack it. I don't see anyone attacking the Einstein's Theory of Realtivity because it is "just a theory" and trying to place stickers on science books. It is no different from scientists being burned at the stake for claiming that the Earth was not the center of the universe back in the dark ages. Same ignorance, new people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 25 2006, 10:57 AM) [snapback]244836[/snapback]</div>

The one thing that I have never seen in my church is the "religious authority manipulating with the masses". But that may be because most people in my church is absolutely committed to the word of God as being the word of God. In fact, the Pastor with teaching something in the Church one week and the next week he publically admitted that what he had taught the previous week was wrong. He stated that many people from the congregation questioned him through out the week about what he had taught and as he re-examined the Bible he believed that what he had taught the previous week was wrong. He publically announce to the congregation that he is so thankful that they are so concerned about the truth of the Bible that they would question what he had taught. He said that he never wants them to stop questioning him on what he teaches and preaches to them.
"Religious authority manipulating with the masses" I just do not see it in my church.

 

I wasn't even going to bother replying to this thread anymore, as it wasn't a reasonable discussion, just a lot of arguing that was going nowhere. But, since you've made it personal:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Apr 24 2006, 01:21 PM) [snapback]244324[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure why/how you ever got that impression?? :blink: Perhaps it is because we are the only ones that are actively carrying out the work Jesus assigned his followers, and follow his and the apostles example in preaching house-to-house?:
Matthew 24:14 -  And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
Acts 5:42 - And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
Acts 20:20 -  while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house.
My actively praising God publicly should in NO way be construed as a weakness of my own faith. In fact, its quite the opposite. Now that I've seen how much God has been slandered by Satan, how Satan has done all he can to paint the only true God as cruel, demanding, selfish, and unconcerned for mankind, I feel I have to do all I can to correct those wrong thoughts.
We are NEVER trying to FORCE our beliefs on other people. But, we realize that people's situations change, people change, and sometimes serious problems arise in people's lives that make them begin to be more aware of their spiritual needs.

No, not insecurity. Our motivation is purely out of love of neighbor, as Jesus preached. What kind of neighbor would I be if your house was burning, and I didn't bother to alert you. Or, if I saw your child drowning, and didn't bother to call for help. Well, God considers us to be just as bloodguilty if we don't tell what we know to others:
Romans 10:13,14 - For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.†14 However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?
Ezekial 33:6 - “‘Now as regards the watchman, in case he sees the sword coming and he actually does not blow the horn and the people itself gets no warning at all and a sword comes and takes away from them soul, for its own error it itself must be taken away, but its blood I shall ask back from the hand of the watchman himself.

No, sorry, wrong again. No points. You can't "win" salvation. It is simply a "gift" from God. And, he sees the heart, so we can't fool him by false acts of worship. So, if my preaching was purely to "win" my salvation, he would see that. But, we also don't believe that faith is ALL that's necessary:
James 2:17,18 - Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works".
So, my works are an EVIDENCE of my strong faith in God, not a way of "working my way" anywhere.

No, sorry, wrong there too. I personally hope to live on a cleansed earth, which I spoke about in another thread. Although some Christians DO go to heaven, there are called there for a specific reason, with a particular assignment:
Revelation 20:6 - Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
Who are they going to rule OVER??
The vast majority of manking will live on earth:
Matthew 5:5 - “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."
Matthew 6:9,10 - "YOU must pray, then, this way:“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.  Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.""
2 Peter 3:13 - But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
Psalms 37:9-11 - 9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.  But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Yes, maybe you should. As everyone else likes to point out, its good to question your beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses NEVER believe we know everything, or that our beliefs are infallible. Above all, we emphasize Bible reading, meditating on what we read, and learning more about God from his Word, which helps us have a better relationship with him. We believe that God's Kingdom is the only real hope for mankind. As borne out in the past 6000 years of human history, "man has dominated man to his injury", and that will never stop without God's intervention.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Deaden @ Apr 25 2006, 11:37 AM) [snapback]244848[/snapback]</div>

No, your example is worthless. The virus is STILL A VIRUS. Yes, it changes and adapts, but still within the genetic safeguards put into it. Next year, its still going to be a virus, not a fish. I have no problem with the PART of evolution that explains "survival of the fittest", or "natural selection". There's NO DOUBT that animals have changed, particularly when geographically isolated for large amounts of time. For me, this just makes me marvel all the more at the fantastic design of each animal's DNA, to allow us to have a dazzling array of variety in each species.
But, the part of the evolution theory that proposes that, given enough time, an animal can change into a completely new lifeform is unproven. The fossil record has failed to produce the gradual chain of progressive evolution that Darwin hypothesized.
On the contrary, the fossil record has shown that ALL the variety of lfe we see today appeared at once, and the fossil layers below that are barren of life.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Apr 19 2006, 10:11 AM) [snapback]242098[/snapback]</div>

Where do you get your information about Mormons? Having been one I can tell you that mainstream Mormons don't practice polygamy (since 1904) or they are excommunicated. Many do, however, believe they will practice it in the afterlife. And Mormons have sex all the time. Certainly not just when they want a baby. In fact, sex is a favorite Mormon pastime. It is one of the only distractions from the guilt and pressure that is otherwise constantly being heaped upon them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rancid13 @ Apr 19 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]242188[/snapback]</div>

Amen. I'm with you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 19 2006, 01:42 PM) [snapback]242232[/snapback]</div>

This is a perfect post!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 19 2006, 09:55 PM) [snapback]242481[/snapback]</div>

That's the belief of many Mormons who take what they hear in Sunday School at face value and only read church-approved sources of church history. In fact, Joseph Smith introduced the doctrine of polygamy only to a few select members of the church as a way to save face only after he could no longer hide the fact that he'd been sleeping around. So he'd say, "God commanded me, and, oh hey, he says you should do it too." He sent men on missions and then married their wives -- while they were still married to their husbands. He married girls as young as 14. All of this he did without the approval or support of his first wife, despite the church's later stance that polygamy not be undertaken without such approval. The "too many women and not enough men" excuse is a hoax. Polygamy was a revelation that came to Joseph Smith through his penis, not through God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_marriage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith%...r._and_Polygamy
http://mccue.cc/bob/documents/rs.mormon%20...heory%20etc.pdf
http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/teen_polygamy.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Deaden @ Apr 25 2006, 11:37 AM) [snapback]244848[/snapback]</div>

If we are talking about science examining the present there is no problem. But, when we are talking about origins where life came from and how old the earth is? Can we state it as a fact? Another words, an evolutionist and a creationist both look at the Grand Canyon. The evolutionist, by faith, believes that it took a small amounts of water over long, long, long periods of time to form. The creationist, by faith, believes that it took tremendous amounts of water (world wide flood of Noah) over a short period of time to form. Why does the evolutionist dismiss any facts that show that the earth is young? Is it their own commitment to their own theory? Another words, if the evolution theory is correct then the earth must be old. So the evolutionist committed to their theory ignore any evidences that points to a young earth. The theory of Uniformity (doctrine holding that changes in the earth's surface that occurred in past geologic time are referable to the same causes as changes now being produced upon the earth's surface) is what the theory of evolution is built upon. But, what if there was a world wide flood of Noah? The whole theory of evolution collapses.
Many christians and myself believe that the Bible predicted that people would believe in the theory of Uniformity which is what evolution is built upon and predicted where they made their mistake. It is in 2 Peter 3:3-6, and in verse 4 states what they believe in "all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation". Note the similiarity between that and the theory of Uniformity "doctrine holding that changes in the earth's surface that occurred in past geologic time are referable to the same causes as changes now being produced upon the earth's surface". Verse 5-6 mentions what "they willfully forget" the flood. It is very interesting that it says that "they willfully forget" about the flood because Charles Darwin study divinity to become a pastor before he set forth his theory. Now I ask you what facts do they have that the flood of Noah never took place? None, it is by faith. Just as I would admit that it is by faith that the Creationist believes that the flood of Noah truly took place.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ Apr 25 2006, 12:55 PM) [snapback]244931[/snapback]</div>

Because there is no such evidence. Show me some real hard scientific evidence pointing to a young Earth. There is none, or at least none that stands up to any real form of scientific peer review. That's the thing about science. It does not go, "Hey, let's try and find stuff to disprove the bible!". It is dealing with cold evidence and facts. The Earth is old, it is an established fact with volumes of evidence to back it up.