religulous

I contribute to charities and causes and I don't expect to be rewarded by a God in heaven... The important thing is that we do contribute - the motivation is secondary. I just find the worshiping part irrational and stupid.

 

God I will believe in you because through believing in you I will ...
If giving to charity is a requirement of belief and through that belief I will get ... then I will give. Yes it is selfish. I suspect when they get that warm feeling from giving they take it that god put that there as a sign they will get the thing/result they want.

I give to charities, in fact the one I give the most to is cancer research, I have no cancer in my family that I am aware of and have few friends affected by it. I think it is important, I don't expect a return.

 

Is this a very recent change? You've been calling yourself a preacher here. Not that a person cannot change. I'm just wondering when and how/why this happened.

Here's the problem: As Sam Harris pointed out, most of the world's people believe that the creator of the universe wrote a book, but they cannot agree on which book it is. You believe it's the Christian Bible, probably because that's what your parents believed, and they indoctrinated you into this belief before you were old enough to know that parents are not all-knowing. Therefore your premise is suspect.

In other words, you feel that your religion is the true one and everybody else has it wrong.

Blame Paul. Jesus preached that the end of the world was at hand, and that in order to be saved you had to do certain things and live a certain way. Paul invented a whole new religion, in which Jesus was to be worshiped as god. For Paul, it didn't matter how you lived, it only mattered that you believe that Jesus is god. There were very many Christianities in the early years after the death of Jesus, But the Roman church, which followed Paul, won out against the others, because it was larger and wealthier (!) and able to buy off smaller churches, and once Constantine converted, that was basically the death knell for any Christian that did not toe the Roman line, up to the Protestant reformation.

So, while I agree with you that listening to Jesus is more commendable than merely believing he was god, that idea would have got you burned at the stake until very recently.

 

Very recent, like, when I posted that. I just can't in good conscience call my self a preacher any more; seems disingenuous to do so. Now, I do still believe in Jesus Christ, the man, and his strong philosophy on peace, love, and understanding, and I still hold onto the reality of God in the universe. And I guess the title 'preacher' could still be held onto, since I have the degrees and all, but why bother? I am just tired of Bible belting folks being associated with me, because I am a 'preacher' and feel that I will just be me, a follower of Christ and his philosophy.

And the change in direction is long coming, and not without thought. For a long time, I have given up on prayer, as I don't think it amounts to a hill of beans difference. We do what we do. And I don't think that God really cares at all, if we do this or that. That is but one example of the change. I also don't buy into the miracle birth, the miracles of walking on water, making a small amount of food into a lot, changing water into wine...
I also think Christ was married to Mary Madeline, and had kids, and the whole nine yards, but for whatever reason the early church had, they discounted that. I have never been able to figure out why it was so important for Christ to be perfect, if he was here to be man. In order to be man, he would not be perfect, and would experience all that man would, like falling in love, and getting married.

Agreed.

 

Check out this movie. You might like it.

The Man from Earth (2007)

"The Man From Earth"

 

Maybe you meant Mary Magdalene?

The Christian Scientists have a rational view of prayer: They believe that there is no point in praying to god because god knows what's in your heart, so expressing your thanks or your thoughts verbally is unnecessary, and god gives you what is best for you, whether it's what you want or not, so there's no point in asking god for stuff. Instead of prayer, they advocate exerting yourself you make yourself a better person. If you believe in an all-knowing, all-present, loving god, then the above follows logically.

On the other hand, if there is no god and you are uncomfortable with that fact, then pretending there is a god by praying to it may make you feel a little better.

Anyway, thanks, TJ, for sharing your change of heart over the preacher vocation.

 

Yes; spelling fart.

I think I will just stick to what I am; I am not sure I will ever fit into a church again. I still read the Bible, I am still working on my masters in theology, and I still think that the Truth is Love, and Love is Christ.

I can't say for sure that God is/was God, since I am not sure that the universe is what we think it is. I won't pretend to think I have all the answers, and there is still a great deal I have to learn.

As we all, correct?

 

I believe the Buddha said that since we cannot know such things, there is no point in speculating about them. I don't remember who said the following, but if there is anything outside of nature, it is most likely that:

Whatever is "out there," whatever "creator" or whatever comes after death, is most likely something that nobody has ever dreamed of, or ever will. If there is a "Truth" other than the material world that we can see and measure, something inaccessible to our senses and our instruments, it's probably impossible for us to ever know it.

The claim of various religions to know "The Truth" conflicts with the fact that so many different religions claim so many contradictory "truths" and so many claims of so many religions (including and especially the big three western monotheistic religions) have been demonstrated to be factually untrue, such as the age of the Earth or the correct method for breeding cows with spots. The real truths are much more mundane than all the religious poppycock about heaven and hell and and a jealous god surrounded by sycophantic angels. Real truths are stuff about the geometry of the solar system, the speed of light, etc.

 

Yes, we all have something to learn. It's been a long time since one person could know all there was to know, and education, in a way, only makes us more aware of how much we don't know. It's the people who insist they have all the answers who are incapable of learning. So, keep asking questions, TJ.

 

lets discuss the big bang theory

 

I must say, I'm impressed that this thread has stayed as civil as it has. Years ago, this topic would inevitably have turned into a horribly ugly flame war.
As an agnostic, i have respect for the whole spectrum of positions EXCEPT for the fundamentalists on one side of the bell curve and the "I want religion to die" militant athiests on the other side of it. Both those positions lack understanding of how humans got to where we are and where we are going.

I will note that not only did love and other human emotions play a part in human evolution as pointed out, but so did RELIGION. It may be that the role of religion has now passed in terms of human evolution, as our brains have continued to evolve to understand our own biology so much better. But nonetheless, relion did serve a purpose in earlier times in unifying societies towards a needed goal. Evolution occurs not just in individual genetics, but also in the form of societal cultures, knowledge, etc. The most common misunderstanding of evolution I see by the fundamentalists is that they don't understand that evolution does NOT have a goal. It is a process, with no desired outcome. I always hear this argument about the odds of us being the way we are through random chance are impossible and it makes me laugh. Of course it is! Because there is an infinite number of different outcomes that could of resulted instead. Evolution is not seeking a certain one. It's like rolling dice a million times and then proclaiming "WOW! the odds of those results in that order are incredible!" Of course they were, there were an incredible number of different outcomes possible!

 

Nicely said.

 

It was really big. And bangy. I was there. It was cool.

 

Are people who are agnostic about god generally also agnostic about santa claus?

 

Touche!

 

Some people just can't get it. 'nough said.hwell:

 

Oh I can get it. I just reject it. So strike me down!!! .....[time passing] ...................[waiting] ........... hmmm, well I'm still here.

 

Thank you for proving my point for me. It's much easier that way.

 

The Big Bang sometimes comes at the end of The Big Date. Usually after The Big Dinner and/or The Big Movie.

Rod