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  1. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Lots of reasons to hate the stuff. Rusting cars, infrastructure (bridges, concrete, especially rebar), changing fresh water lakes/rivers, to the point marine species are able to live in them.

    Good discussion of alternatives/adjuncts (beet juice/salt mix for example), and "low hanging fruit", like: do we really need a centimeter deep layer of rock salt throughout our parking lots and mall sidewalks?

    Also the question, is a completely bare road necessary?

    My thought: maybe wider adoption of snow tires could reduce the need for salt.

    Beet juice and cheese brine: what cities are spreading on streets to replace corrosive road salt - Home | The Current with Anna Maria Tremonti | CBC Radio
     
    #1 Mendel Leisk, Jan 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  2. dubit

    dubit Senior Member

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    My personal thought is they salt way too many roads. Highways, main roads in town, and intersections I'm ok with. Otherwise I'd prefer just sanding them. Years ago, they used to put crushed coal cinders on the road. That worked just like salt when the sun came out.

    As for snow tires - I'm in Indiana, and to be honest, most of us here at least don't need them. We just don't get enough snow to justify it.

    I've never heard of so much salt getting into rivers and streams that fish were unable to live in them though. (If that's what you were saying)
     
  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I think he meant that some saltwater species that do not normally live in fresh water, are now migrating up in to what should be fresh water areas.
     
  4. dubit

    dubit Senior Member

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    Ahhh.... now I see it. :)
     
  5. WilDavis

    WilDavis Senior Member

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    I remember reading somewhere that in Europe some of the waste-products from the wine-making industry are used to treat highways in order to prevent icing! (France or Germany from what I remember!) ;)
     
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  6. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Indiana not needing snow treatment !?!?. You must live in an area not influenced by the lake effects. I spent 4 years up in the northwest corner and was thankful for the plows and blowers that came out in the morning to deal with the 6-8" of snow. I recall walking maybe 500 yards from my car to my dorm and my hands holding books freezing to the point of frostbite where warm water felt like boiling water on my fingers. I had snow tires and shovels and all the other freezing weather things a car/driver might need.
     
  7. southjerseycraig

    southjerseycraig Active Member

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    Calcium chloride and magnesium chloride are less toxic ways to de-ice a sidewalk and driveway. But my understanding is that it is not practical to use these to de-ice roads. So we're stuck with salt. Doing away with it would, I fear, greatly increase the number of accidents, especially when temperatures are hovering around freezing.
     
  8. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    When I lived in Denver, they switched to magnesium chloride to reduce the brown cloud. Sanding the roads was a major cause.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  9. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Even though it's corrosive, it seems that salt does the best job on the surfaces around here. When we get a warm day though, I hose the car off as soon as I can.

    When the trucks salt the road during rush hour, no one will pass them 'cause it's like being shot gunned.
     
    #9 El Dobro, Jan 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  10. dubit

    dubit Senior Member

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    Thought about that after I posted. Not everyone in Indiana lives South of Indianapolis. :)
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it would be great to reduce salt, but like everything else in life, people are used to speeding and driving like maniacs no matter the weather.
    will be a tough sell, but one i would vote for.
     
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  12. Lucifer

    Lucifer Senior Member

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    I live at 1480', the town always leaves the plowblades 1" off the ground??
    My road is dirt and they don't plow less than 6", they just spread sand, so all winter long a glacier devolopes, in the spring it's 12-16" deep and of course the ground thaws first, so water starts running and sink holes and wash outs are common, so as the glacier melts and in spots you sink down to the road, which is also now 9-12" of mud, things get interesting, my Ram ecodiesel has air suspension that can raise it 5", works to get the running boards out of the mud.
    The paved roads again, always have an inch of snow when plowed, but they spread a mixture of sand and salt, a perfect mixture for goo at any temperature, the vehicles Leave three tracks that are pavement so the squished snow accumulates between the tracks, when you get in the goo, well, my Studded Nokia'n snow tires just go where ever inertia sends me.

    Anyway, salt makes for frozen caliper pins in the brakes.
     
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  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    mud season, my daughter used to talk about that in vt.
     
  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Depends on the area.

    If it stays cold enough, a 5cm depth is what some cities in the prairies do, to reduce wear and tear on the asphalt from the constant blading. (and can protect the road from freeze-thaw )

    But if routinely gets warm enough to melt snow, you'd want to get rid of the snow so that meltwater doesn't form and flood areas that don't normally get flooded (or have partially melted ice clog drains and flood roads).

    Maybe just focus on priority roads? (i.e. main roads with transit access, main thoroughfares and roads that are designated trucking, dangerous goods or emergency roads).

    Alternatively, I wonder if we can build heaters along the side of the road (radiant heat into the concrete portion of the road) where the drains and tie it to the street lamp circuit. When it snows, the drain on the side of the roads are clear so simply shoving snow to the side of the road can eventually melt the snow into the drains.
     
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  15. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    The trucks pre-brine the roads ahead of an impending storm to give them a bit of an edge against the meteorological onslaught.

    [​IMG]

    Seems to work fairly well.
     
  16. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    I always see those lines in the road but never saw them putting the liquid down. I don't have to drive when the roads are bad being retired.
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    @KennyGS Gotta laugh: I'll bet that is one vehicle that nobody tailgates:

    upload_2018-1-26_17-47-44.png
     
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  18. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    They don't tailgate the honey dipper truck either. Lol
     
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  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    ... especially among drivers who have been conditioned to expect and count on it, and have little experience on un- and lightly-groomed roads.

    Salt shouldn't be eliminated, just not used at excessive levels. Treat the primary intersections, worst curves, and naturally icy spots, not the entire road. The straight level road segments ought to get far less, if anything. The least hazardous segments should retain some reminders about why greater caution and lower speed is needed in winter.
     
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i live across from an elementary school with the in and out at either end of my property. when it snows, they go in, come out, drive by my house over and over, all day long and never shut off the spreader.
    my well water has increased in sodium steadily over 14 years. when i complain to the board of health and daw, i just get the deer in the headlights look.
     
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