1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Rough running, AFR reading lean but engine running rich

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by yello_downunder, May 22, 2021.

  1. yello_downunder

    yello_downunder Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    9
    5
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I have a 2005 Prius that is running rough. Eventually it will trigger a hybrid system code when the ICE fails to start. Once it also triggered an air fuel sensor code (bank 1, sensor 1) that wasn't the heater-related code. I didn't record them then they happened.

    Thinking the AFR sensor was bad I replaced it (the existing one was about a year old). No change in behavior. Digging deeper, I found the ECU registering the O2S1 voltage between 4.5V and 5V when the ICE is running. Apparently this should be around 3.3V and 4.5V is a very lean condition.

    I went to replace the AFR again and the sensor I pulled from car was covered in black soot. This is after only about 30 minutes of running. I pulled the spark plugs and they were also black with soot as well. My understanding is that this indicates a rich condition (The air filter is new). So we have an AFR that indicates the engine is excessively lean, while reality indicates a rich condition. I checked the voltages at the sensor and at the ECU and they register 3V and 3.3V on each of the signal wires, so wiring doesn't seem to be an issue.

    Thinking the only thing left is the ECU, I made a run to the junkyard today and replaced it. Tested and it still has the same issue. The ECU measures the AFR sensor voltage between 4.5V to 5V, and the ICE runs like crap. If I drive the car long enough, it runs worse and worse to the point where when the engine stops there is a horrible shaking and clattering and I'm afraid the engine will be damaged.

    Today I did catch on the scanner where the AFR sensor read around 3.3V for a short period of time about a minute after I started the car (picture me doing fist bumps and celebrating my victory). Then the voltage jumped up and the engine started to run like crap.

    With the old ECU the LTFT was about 20% and the STFT was around the same. When the AFR sensor read 3.3V, the STFT was 0%, but jumped up past 20% when the AFR reading rose to 4.5V. I haven't checked the LTFT with the replacement ECU. If I disconnect the AFR sensor the engine runs much better because it relies on the downstream O2 sensor.

    I'm at a loss as to what to try next, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm looking in the wrong spot. Anyone have ideas about what would cause the AFR reading to apparently be the inverse of what it should be?
     
  2. yello_downunder

    yello_downunder Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    9
    5
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Update after some more testing: I noticed the O2 sensor was reading 0.0V. Removed and tested and reinstalled in the car and now the computer reads 0.9 volts and backprobing the connector reads 0.6V. The AFR sensor at one point drifted down to 3.5V, but when the ICE stopped and restarted it was back to the 4.5V-5V range.
    IMG_7505.jpg
     
  3. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    5,286
    4,225
    0
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    How many miles on the vehicle?
    Was the running rough a recent issue, or something that developed over a period of time?

    Are you using techstream for the OBD2 codes (DTCs) ?
     
  4. yello_downunder

    yello_downunder Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    9
    5
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    The vehicle has 285000 miles on it. I have noticed misfires during cold startup since I purchased the vehicle about 3 years ago, but the rough running when warm started a few weeks ago. Now with COVID I only drive it once or twice per week.

    I'm not familiar with techstream. I have been using bluetooth code readers for information, I have a Bosch reader and recently purchased a Veepeak reader to help troubleshoot this issue.
     
  5. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    5,286
    4,225
    0
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Did you replace with OEM from a dealer, or the DENSO brand equivalent?
     
  6. yello_downunder

    yello_downunder Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    9
    5
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I replaced with an aftermarket sensor, Ultra Power 250-54006. The part number matches one from Walker, but those may be generic part numbers.

    Are you suggesting I try the Denso sensor instead?
     
  7. Samuel Williams Jr

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2019
    246
    90
    0
    Location:
    Dayton NV
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Ugh well you ruled out the ECU so it has to be the O2 sensors? As I understand they work in tandem, the front O2 actually understands what the engine is doing/needs and the second one reports back to the ECU to check if this is correct?

    If one or the other is off? The ECU would get bad information and try and compensate for it. At this point, I would ditch both of them and start from there.
     
  8. Samuel Williams Jr

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2019
    246
    90
    0
    Location:
    Dayton NV
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
  9. yello_downunder

    yello_downunder Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    9
    5
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I suspected a vacuum leak as well, but digging into the problem, it turned out to not be the case. When I inspected the spark plugs and the new AFR sensor they were covered in black soot, indicating the engine is running rich, not lean. I checked by introducing a vacuum leak and the engine ran smoother, engine rpm increased, and the downstream (o2) sensor switched from rich to lean. The upstream (AFR) sensor remained lean throughout.
     
  10. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    3,241
    1,351
    0
    Location:
    NJ-USA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Yes, either Denso from Toyota or Denso from a reputable aftermarket supplier.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  11. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    5,286
    4,225
    0
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Many OEM or denso sensors will last well past 100k miles, was that one year old sensor also aftermarket / ultra power?
    Though expensive to try, this could solve the issue. Is there a nearby junkyard to you could pull a used one from?

    Before dropping for a new OEM/Denso sensor, give the workup below a shot, many of the steps can be done without Techstream.

    Here is the workup for DTC P0171 : https://share.qclt.com/%E4%B8%B0%E7%94%B0%E6%99%AE%E7%91%9E%E6%96%AF%E5%8E%9F%E5%8E%82%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87%E6%89%8B%E5%86%8Cpdf%E6%A0%BC%E5%BC%8F/repair%20manual/04pruisr/05/2054m/cip0171.pdf

    Curious when the MAF was last cleaned, and if you've tried resetting the fuel curve to factory by disconnecting the 12v.

    *** Have you ever ran techron or PEA through the fuel system to clean up those aging injectors?
     
    Samuel Williams Jr likes this.
  12. Samuel Williams Jr

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2019
    246
    90
    0
    Location:
    Dayton NV
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Hm, OK I would start over again with your scan tool. Even the dumbest of them should check the 02 as part of there hook procedure?

    And back probing the 02 is pretty good and would work just fine with most motors but not with one that starts and stop's? You'd have to put the Prius in "Maintenance Mode," for that to work. A properly functioning 02 sensor on a fully warmed up motor will never show Zero.

    The 02 should dither rapidly back and forth as it try's to maintain a 14.7 air to fuel ratio. It should show lean at part throttle (cruising) and rich at full throttle (accelerating) but it the ECU stills want to 14.7.

    And if the motor just stops at idle? Normal for a "Prius," but kind of a WTH, for trouble shooting with a DVOM? I am not saying it's not the 02 but the start and stop throws a wrench in a part of your trouble shooting process?
     
  13. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    3,241
    1,351
    0
    Location:
    NJ-USA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    For some reason the upstream AFR is lying. (this assumes that your scanner is displaying correct data). Your downsteam O2 sensor reads rich (0.9V). Fuel trims are high positive, and things are sooting up. You could have a large exhaust leak somewhere at the manifold (false air gets sucked in between exhaust pulses, fooling the sensor), but that would be fairly obvious. You could still have some sort of wiring fault, but usually something wrong with the signal or heater circuits will set appropriate codes (ideally you would somehow check function of the heater- either somehow measuring the heater current or possibly using an infrared pyrometer?). Otherwise I'd substitute a "known good" AFR. I really despise off brand sensors- don't know how many days of my life I've wasted chasing a problem that "I installed". Now I use OE or a OE brand AM supplier (Denso, Bosch, NTK as required).

    What you see with a DVOM on the circuits at the sensor is part of how it functions. The ECU maintains that 300mV (3.3V minus 3.0V) difference across the sensor, and the actual mixture that the sensor "sees" in the exhaust will affect the amount of electrical current needed to keep it at 300mV. AFAIK a lean mixture can go up to around +2mA (on fuel cut) while really rich goes maybe -1mA. Most steady state running conditions stay very close to zero (often +/- 0.1mA) at 14.7:1. Toyota engineers decided to have the ECU and scantool display that current amount as a voltage. So at normal idle it should read on either side of 3.3 (3.2 - 3.4V). Give it more throttle and you get somewhat larger variations, maybe +/- 0.5V. I only see 5.0V during fuel cut (decel or engine off).
     
  14. yello_downunder

    yello_downunder Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    9
    5
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I pulled a Toyota labelled AFR sensor from a wrecked car at the junkyard today. Well, actually pulled the exhaust manifold with the sensor still in it because none of my o2 sensor sockets would fit inside the cylindrical heat shield. I used it to replace the aftermarket sensor I had installed. The car works as expected now. Success!

    If there was a moral to this story, it's probably "buy sh***y parts, win stupid prizes". That was three budget sensors that all exhibited the same symptoms. For those reading this thread in the future, you probably want to shell out for a Denso AFR sensor or Toyota sensor.

    I took it out for a short test drive and the car seems eager to accelerate. It might have been low on power for a while and I never noticed it. I'm going to take it out for a full drive cycle next, and test under cold start conditions in the morning.

    I probably wouldn't have been able to fix it without everybody's suggestions. Thank you!

    I'm attaching a screenshot of the engine running normally.
    IMG_7522.jpg

    Edit: I forgot to mention that I had cleaned the MAF sensor a few days ago, and also swapped out with a junkyard part. There was no change in readings when I did this.

    Edit 2: I put a bottle of Techron in the tank. I previously ran fuel system cleaner through this car , but I hadn't heard of polyetheramine (PEA).
     
    #14 yello_downunder, May 26, 2021
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
    SFO and Samuel Williams Jr like this.
  15. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    3,241
    1,351
    0
    Location:
    NJ-USA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Four