Rough start after extensive cleaning and replacement parts

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by run4priz, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    2012 Prius V with 175k miles. CEL came on P0301 and started to consistently get what I’m equating with the “death rattle” term i see in other threads.

    After researching on this forum and countless YouTube videos, I decided to try all of the following, since we bought the car with 135k miles and didn’t know much of the service history.

    Replaced spark plugs
    Replaced ignition coils
    Replaced fuel injectors
    EGR pipe / valve / cooler removal & cleaning
    Replace PCV
    Intake manifold removal & cleaning
    Throttle body removal & cleaning plus new gaskets
    Replace coolant / oil change/ air filter
    Oil catch

    We initially only changed the spark plugs and coils but still got the CEL. After further research, we concluded we probably had the oil contamination in the intake manifold. Given how many miles and not knowing the service history and my son needing the car to be reliable, we dove in.

    The EGR valve/cooler was by far the worst. Fuel injectors were completely gummed up. Oil consumption had been really bad. 1 qt low in 500 miles normally. Intake manifold had oil puddles in it.

    After doing all of this work when we started it up, we initially got the death rattle but it was actually worse than before any of the work. No CEL though. We let it run for about 30-40 sec. Turned it off and back on the next time for close to a min. The third time everything started to smooth out. We decided to roll out of the garage and take a test drive. It ran great. I then took a drive about 15 min away and it drove wonderfully.

    So here are the two questions:

    1. Is it normal for it to be rough (death rattle) initially like this? Not sure what I expected but idling that rough initially after repairs wasn’t it. Worries it will come back.

    2. Would you expect the hybrid drive to kick in more often? The norm had become less engine turn off at stops and just rough idling. Seems like it switches to EV mode much more quickly.

    thx again for this forum. Extremely helpful!
     
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  2. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    Waiting for Mendel to chime in with link to cylinder leakdown/compression test... which will help rule in/out a bad head gasket leaking coolant into the cylinder(s).

    The coolant/liquid accumulating into the cylinder(s) is what is causing the "death rattle" at startup, until the liquid clears from the cylinder.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  3. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    I've cleaned my egr system twice, both times it has rattled when I started it.
    You get brake cleaner or carb cleaner in the intake when you clean it out.
    I only let it run for a few seconds when it rattled. Then started it again, and it ran well.
    Though the 2nd time I forgot to connect a sensor. I had a CEL light telling me the sensor,
    I don't remember which one, but it was easily connected. Cleared the code and it was fine.
     
  4. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    Time will tell. Very likely no change in oil consumption. My 2012 v always shuts the engine off at lights and just about anytime I let off the accelerator. I would suspect the hv battery needed charge.
     
  5. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    The switching on of the ICE more is a sign of battery degradation;).

    Our old 2010 was experiencing that when I got around 150k miles, and I installed a Prolong harness and began using their equipment. The site is janky so I can't post a link:cool:.

    Startup knock is normal as the other posters above have claimed. I've done a dozen circuit cleanses and it happens frequently(y).
     
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    My two cents, you should have started with a leak-down test. Instead of this:

    Good, but maybe too late, considering the code and the miles:

    The code more'n likely is due to head gasket failure at cylinder 1. Leak-down test and boroscope exam can confirm.

    With head gasket replaced, head gone over by a machine shop, pistons checked that they're all rising to the same height at TDC, and a clean intake and EGR system, you should be out of the woods.
     
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  7. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    I should have more clear. Replacing coolant wasn’t because of leak. We drained to avoid spills. Not knowing exactly which were coolant lines was a little frustrating, so we took the easy way out and drained bulk of coolant.
     
  8. Paul E. Highway

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    After I did the EGR cooler/valve/pipe-intake manifold-PCV procedure on my 2010, when I started the engine it sounded like there were nuts and bolts in the cylinders for 3-4 seconds then ran smooth as silk. This was at 156K miles. So far no oil usage between changes (5K) and no coolant loss.
     
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  9. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    I should have also mentioned that the EGR pipe was about 75% occluded….cooler about the same maybe a bit less.

    also, any recommendations on leak down/ compression testers or just borrow from local auto parts store? Seems like there’s a lot of crappy stuff available online…not sure how to evaluate quality of equipment. With 2 other vehicles in the 100k+ mileage category, this maybe something I may be using more frequently. Although the other cars we’ve maintained since the beginning so I know their condition and maintenance history.
     
  10. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    Hi Raytheeagle, what is the purpose of the prolong harness?
     
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  11. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    If you looking for evidence of head gasket leaks, compression testers usually read good no matter what because the leakage is often small.

    A compressed air leak down tester may be more conclusive if air bubbles show up in the coolant. When a compression tester shows imbalances, a leakdown tester can often determine if its valves, rings or hg leaks. Sometimes leakdown fails as well in the early hg stages but its arguably better than compression testing.

    There are radiator combustion gas testers that can be used to detect gasses in the coolant.

    Sometimes the easiest, most conclusive and reasonably priced tool is a borescope inspection camera to view the cylinders through the sparkplug hole. A cleaner piston is usually caused by coolant burning.
     
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  12. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    It allows the Hybrid automotive equipment to be hooked up ;).

    Here's a screenshot of my thread in the topic:):

    C3D4FBE6-60D9-41DB-B712-16E559D26FD2.png

    Search for that topic and you'll see some documentation(y).
     
  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    link to above
     
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  14. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Thanks for the assist;).

    Doing things on my iPhone have their disadvantages given the current PriusChat state of affairs:cool:.

    Still trying to do what I can to help(y).
     
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  15. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    Compression test yielded the following:
    CYL 1 - 182
    CYL 2 - 188
    CYL 3 - 192
    CYL 4 - 195

    Scope and Leak down test tomorrow. Ran out of time today. Darn check valve failed after the first 4 tests. We were going to do a wet test, but then got side tracked on why the gauge was no longer holding air after first 4. Seems to me, the check valve must have an issue. We no longer had to release to air after. Rigged up a connection to compressed air and had the same result. Once air stopped from the compressor, the pressure in the line went to zero. Clearly the check value has failed. Tried some of the alternative valves that came with the test, all had the same result.
     
  16. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    Initial pics of cylinders 1-4. Not the best. Trying again tomorrow after it charges more. Cyl 1 and 4 are closer up to to their timing and obviously 2 and 3 are further away.
     

    Attached Files:

    #16 run4priz, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  17. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    Looks like the further away pics are better. I might try to rotate the engine to get comparable views on 1 and 4. Number one is often the guy but not always. In your case the compression was lower on 1. You want to compare the cylinder walls as well. The 2 and 3 pics seem to show an incredible amount of buildup, possibly with some broken off.

    If you do end up with a head gasket, I would replace those pistons and rings and eliminate the oil burning. In reality that means a rebuild as most salvage engines are the problematic years and JDM engines are not identified by vin or year.
     
  18. run4priz

    run4priz New Member

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    Leak down test results- challenging to keep TDC:

    Cyl 1 - 20%
    Cyl 2 - 20%
    Cyl 3 - 25%
    Cyl 4 - 20%

    1,2 and 4, slight positive airflow from oil cap.
    3 slight positive airflow at tail pipe. No bubbling in the radiator. Oil and coolant do NOT appear to have mixed at all.Planning to do a piston soak, just based on possible things to “help” rings and valves.

    based on the above, does anyone continue to think it’s a head gasket issue? Just following Eric the car guys philosophy…”we know, we don’t guess, we gather evidence “ I didn’t follow that approach from the beginning but now I’m a firm believer.

    baeed on everything I’ve read so far and the evidence we have at hand, and given I missed the extended warranty on the pistons and rings offered by toyota, my conclusion based upon the facts would be shot rings or the inherited effect of a poorly designed gen 3 engine. On the cylinder where air flow was observed in the tail pipe leads me to the conclusion either the valve is not closing or TDC was completely achieved.

    I looked at cyl 1 and 4 with them in the bottom position…looked the same as 2 and 3: lots of sludge.

    I'm thinking of doing a piston soak. I don’t think there would be anything risked or lost in doing so.

    thoughts?
     
  19. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    To get a true reading, the pistons have to be at TDC. If they keep moving, and a valve opens,
    you won't get a true reading.
    You'll have to try again, Try to lock the crank so it won't turn, maybe with a ratchet on the
    crankshaft pulley bolt, wedged against the ground???

    You have to get a true reading or you're just guessing...
     
  20. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    My breaker bar is about the right length for me to stick a socket on the crank pulley bolt, rest the breaker bar end on the ground, and stick my foot against it while doing the test,
     
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