rough start, throws P0138, P2195 codes

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by GWhizzer, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. GWhizzer

    GWhizzer not so Senior Member

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    Cold morning (-20 C) after warmer (near 0 C) weather. Prius started very rough with loud banging/knocking. Shut it down right away and restarted. Again rough for about 15 or 20 seconds then smoothed out. Check engine light came on. This type of rough start has happened at least once, perhaps twice in the almost 5 years I have owned the vehicle. This is the first time the check engine light has come on. Has been running fine since (week later) with no signs of repeating.

    I immediately thought it was the old rough start issue referenced in TSB 0010-12 since the sounds and symptoms seemed to match exactly. However when I pulled the codes, I got four codes that were not what I expected based on the TSB. I got two sets of P0138 and P2195 which are usually more related to O2 sensors. I might suspect these are unrelated if it weren't for the fact that the check engine light came on exactly coincident with the rough start and has never been on before. Anyway, I cleared the codes and they seem to be staying clear for the moment.

    Has anyone else had these codes with such a rough start? Any thoughts on whether the TSB - 0010-12 situation could cause these codes?
     
  2. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    It's too cold to be working on the car. I would see if the codes return before I start to worry. 02 sensors won't disable your car. How many miles are on your car?
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    have you already replaced the manifold?
     
  4. GWhizzer

    GWhizzer not so Senior Member

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    Ya got that right, although it's only a balmy -16 C this morning :)

    I agree. I was going to wait and see if they return. I figured if it is related to the TSB 0010-12 issue then they shouldn't return unless it happens again. If it was truly bad O2 sensors, then they would...

    There's 78,000 km (48,750 mi) on the car
     
  5. GWhizzer

    GWhizzer not so Senior Member

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    No, it's the original manifold. Although I read somewhere that Toyota has withdrawn TSB 0010-12 and are no longer replacing manifolds for this because it wasn't fixing the problem. I tried this morning to find the article I read that in, but couldn't, so not sure if it is true.
     
  6. Fred_H

    Fred_H Misoversimplifier

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    In my opinion, this is caused by condensation in the exhaust wetting or freezing on to one or more of the exhaust gas sensors.
    Although the sensors are electrically heated, that is sometimes not sufficient to dry or thaw the sensors during startup.
     
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 'Orrible Oracle

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    Are you out due to time on the 5 year, 100,000 km powertrain warranty?

    (I guess if Toyota's stumped, it's a moot point.)
     
    #7 Mendel Leisk, Jan 2, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i don't know how well the fix worked, there's a huge thread. but some still have it happen and even 2012 - 2015 models.
     
  9. GWhizzer

    GWhizzer not so Senior Member

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    No. Just shy of the 5 years (March) and a little under 80k km. If it happens again and/or it throws codes again, I will take it in. Although I have tried to reproduce by shutting down before warm-up is complete and restarting the next morning unsuccessfully. If I can't faithfully reproduce, unless it throws more codes I probably won't have much success with Toyota.

    Perhaps in hindsight I should have taken it in to Toyota since it is still under warranty, rather than clearing the codes myself to see if it would happen again. But I guess I was a little adverse to having them start replacing parts (like O2 sensors) if they are not really the problem. My experience at the dealorship service department hasn't been exactly sterling when it comes to oil changes, never mind actual repairs :(
     
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  10. DoubleDAZ

    DoubleDAZ Senior Member

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    IMHO, you had the right idea to reset the codes and see if the problem recurs. However, being that close to warranty expiration, the dealer might have been able to test the sensors before replacing them (I assume they can be tested to some degree). The advantage to having taken it in would be that you'd have a record of the problem and that might have helped if the problem recurred shortly after the warranty was up, assuming it would have been covered by the warranty in the first place.
     
  11. mypriuscious

    mypriuscious Member

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    My EGR valve recently was replaced and while it was acting up there were a couple times that the turning over of the motor was VERY rough. And while running the motor would shake.
     
  12. Ltlg

    Ltlg Junior Member

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    Started my car this morning at -15F and It had a very very rough banging/knocking sound. Got in shut it off and started it again and it came out of it. Makes me nervous, but the check engine light never came on. I've started it before on colder days with -20F and it starts fine with no problems. Sure hope this doesn't lead to anything serious happening. Someone suggested putting some HEAT in the gas. Kinda makes me nervous as I'm not sure about adding anything to the tank. Will wait and see what happens tomorrow morning.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how bout a block heater?
     
  14. cdherman

    cdherman Junior Member

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    I can verify that as of 12/29/14, the day I had my 2011 at the dealer for this type of startup rattle/miss fire, they are no longer replacing the manifold. The TSB is showing in their system as withdrawn, if I remember correctly.

    What's more, they maintain that an engine misfire is not part of the 60k/5 year powertrain warranty. Misfire would be under ignition and that's not part of the power train.

    Made me real happy. Toyota does not seem to officially admit that the cold start misfire exists. They checked the plugs and coils and cancelled out the codes and sent me on my way, minus $99

    But the start up rattle has happened to me only once, and it happened in the classic setting: I had driven the car only a few feet three days earlier and shut the engine off after perhaps 30 seconds, while it was still in its "warmup) phase. Then it sat in a very cold building at about 15 degree for 4 days. Upon startup, clearly was miss firing. Lasted for maybe 15 seconds.

    I think the condensation theory is the correct one. "Heat" is made to pull water out of gas lines and tank. Its basically alcohol. So these days, with so much ethanol in our fuel supplies, these is no role for Heat. As much as the condensation is indeed water, its water from combustion that is slipping back into the intake manifold due to the strangeness of the Atikinson cycle engines we have.

    If it happens often to you, you need to start making sure that you don't shut the engine off unless its fully warmed up. This is reputed to stop the occurrences of the cold start misfire.
     
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  15. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    $99 to check the plugs and coils is a deal. It's a lot of work. .....if they really did it
     
  16. cdherman

    cdherman Junior Member

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    I don't know what they really did to check them. But they did take things apart and moved the #1 coil to 2 and #1 spark plug to 3. But it would not throw any other codes from that point on -- probably since the coils and plugs are not the cause of the cylinder 1 misfire after cold soak. In fact, Toyota does not seem to acknowledge right now that the phenomenon exists. Except it does.....

    This has actually shaken my faith in Toyota just a tad. I've had really good luck with my Toyota products through the years. Bought the 2011 Prius expecting the same. And to be fair, its not dumped me or really cost anything except gas, oil and tires. Except for the $99 But its making more noise (different noise than the startup misfire)....

    Anyhow, I *think* the startup misfire can be avoided by recognizing the atmospheric and usage phenomenon. Just do not park a cold vehicle after a few seconds of engine run time, in the cold. That's actually been solid advice for decades, but we all know that you can get away with it usually in modern vehicles.
     
  17. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    That's all the more reason why it would be helpful if (as others have suggested in other threads) they'd allow moving the car a very short distance at very low speeds without starting the engine, as long as battery state of charge, etc. allows, even at low ambient temperatures.
     
  18. macman408

    macman408 Electron Guidance Counselor

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    You can in fact move the car as far (and as fast) as you like without starting the engine... as long as you turn it off again within about 12 seconds. :D

    I can admit to (and I imagine others will too) moving the car for 10 seconds, turning it off and back on, and then moving it for another 10 seconds, in order to move it somewhere in EV when below the 68°F threshold for EV mode.

    In fact, given that the 0-60 time is quoted as under 12 seconds...... :whistle:
     
  19. GWhizzer

    GWhizzer not so Senior Member

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    My check engine light has come on again yesterday. Different codes this time...
    - P0031 (Oxygen (A/F) Sensor Heater Control Circuit Low (Bank 1 Sensor 1))
    - P0038 (Oxygen Sensor Heater Control Circuit High (Bank 1 Sensor 2))

    so still related to the oxygen sensor. I'll take it in this time and see what Toyota thinks. Not sure if oxygen sensors will be covered under either the 5 yr powertrain or 8 year emission warranties. Anyone have a link to a document that lists what is covered under these Canadian warranties? I couldn't find one...
     
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