"Sabotage in Wartime"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 18 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]527388[/snapback]</div>

This where you are wrong. We still have far more power over the chinese at this point. At this point economic retaliation on the Chinese part would have far greater consequences to them than us. Now the longer the current trade situation is allowed to continue eventually we will hit a tipping point.

in 2005 the Chinese GNP was $1.5 trillion. The Chinese imports to the US were $244 billion. So almost 17% of the Chinese economy is dependent on US imports. They can't retalite too much without throwing their own economy into a huge tailspin.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 18 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]527380[/snapback]</div>

No ,you said the Chinese arent helping us in the war on terror.I replied that they are financing the war.
Its not their fault that Bush is grossly mismanaging our finances and squandering our countries economic health by involving us in a futile worthless war,thereby creating the largest debt in history.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 18 2007, 01:29 PM) [snapback]527391[/snapback]</div>

So it is your position that China has more to lose by sinking our economy that we do because China is dependent on the US for 17% of their GDP? Last I knew 100% is far greater than 17%. If China was to suddenly dump all their US government investments, it would cause the rest of the world to make a "run on the bank" to cash in too. Yes, it would hurt China's economy but they have other markets. Will they do it? I don't think so, but they will hold it over our heads. I suspect that they will instead slowly divest of US T notes and invest in the rest of the world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 18 2007, 07:37 PM) [snapback]527532[/snapback]</div>

So is your position we do nothing to change the balance of payments and just fall deeper and deeper in debt to Japan and China? Why on earth would you not endorse a change in our trade policies?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 19 2007, 06:52 AM) [snapback]527688[/snapback]</div>

I'm simply replying to your claim that China can't hurt our economy because it would hurt the Chinese more than the U.S.A. I believe it is quite obvious that a total collapse of the dollar caused by global investors suddenly cashing in their US government bonds would be far more damaging to the US than to China. China has the power to start such a collapse if they choose too due to the shear volume of US government bonds that they hold.

Nothing in my conversation has been about trade imbalances. Nice try on changing topics though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 19 2007, 07:33 AM) [snapback]527698[/snapback]</div>

Actually, it was the president and the republican controlled congress that was spending our money - and then the president that blocked attempts by the democratically controlled congress to stop it...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 19 2007, 07:55 AM) [snapback]527702[/snapback]</div>

If the dollar and thus the US economy collapses, it will have a huge ripple effect of the Chinese economy. Who do you think is propelling the Chinese economic juggernaut? Their imports to Japan?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 19 2007, 11:11 AM) [snapback]527774[/snapback]</div>

Well exports to Japan would certainly help. According to the CIA fact book, China’s 5 biggest export countries are: USA 21.1%, Hong Kong 17%, Japan 12.4%, South Korea 4.7 %, and Germany 4%. Those are 2004 numbers. Of course the CIA isn’t looking at the EU as a single economic block. According to the Asian Times, China’s exports to the EU exceeded their exports to the U.S. and are growing at almost 3x the rate.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/IE30Dj01.html

2006 numbers;
U.S. Exports $232 Billion; up 8%
E.U. Exports $336 Billion; up 21%

You haven’t yet grasped the fact that there are other people and markets in the world. The US is not the center of the universe. If by your account the US is 17% of China’s GDP, that would make the EU 25%. Yes, if the US economy was to collapse it would have a ripple effect through the global economy. However, the US isn’t even the largest single market in the world anymore, the EU is. China has also been very aggressive in the developing world, basically trading cheap manufactured goods for raw materials. China has other markets to sell their products to.

It still stands that a collapse of the US economy would hurt the US far more than it would China.

 

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 19 2007, 07:33 AM) [snapback]527698[/snapback]</div>

Dr,Berman,
Eagle 33199 already pointed out the BS in your first spending statement.
The statement about the cost of war is equally BS.
Do you know what the largest expenditure of modern warfare is?
Hint -its not ammunition or weapons or personnel or humvees.
Think about it and youll realize the lameness of the statement you just made.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 19 2007, 11:57 AM) [snapback]527802[/snapback]</div>

I am very short of time this afternoon. Why do we continue to let our trading partners take such advantage of us? Our debt is going to destroy the United States.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 19 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]527849[/snapback]</div>

You continue to make my point. Yes, debt in the US, both personal and government, is reaching a tipping point. Holding a large portion of that debt is a very effective weapon that the Chinese can use to bully us, just like the OPEC countries do by threatening to cut off our supply of oil.

We are currently using foreign money to finance a war to attempt to secure our future supply of oil. One of the largest suppliers of that money is China and they are also our biggest competitor for future supply of oil. See the future conflict?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 19 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]527849[/snapback]</div>

Yes, the debt is bad, but thats not due to any trade imbalance. Our nation has debt because our government can't seem to avoid spending more than it's making (from taxes). Individuals have debt for the same reason - They spend more than they make. Simply paying for goods or services doesn't give another country power over you or your economy, when we have a Global Market. In the case of Oil, it's not Global - there are very few places that can produce the amounts we need, so simply buying it gives those countries great influence in America. Cars, TVs and whatever else are a different story. If China started to dump US debt into the market, the differential between our economies would change. Things made in China would increase in price, while things made locally would essentially remain level (assuming local interests don't try any price gouging). We'd start buying more goods made in the USA because of this price differential, and in the end it wouldn't really matter much. No country that holds our debt would be stupid enough to try to dump all of it all at once - Yes, a sudden hit like that would destroy our economy, but it would also ripple across the entire world and probably induce a world-wide depression. In the end, it would be very bad for everyone. Instead, they're more likely to do it slowly, over a large number of years so as to not hurt their economy.

If you want my honest opinion, it would probably be a good thing for some of these countries to start divesting them selves of US debt. We've been riding this huge wave of prosperity that, simply put, can't last forever. As a country we've grown fat and complacent and don't know what personal hardship really is anymore. We whine when the price of gas hits $3 per gallon, because we deserve cheaper gas. It's our birthright. I say let our economy depress a little, let these trade imbalances work themselves out naturally instead of maintaining them like we do now. Sure, things might get a little more expensive. Your middle class worker may not be able to get a loan to buy that half million dollar house he wants. But in the end, it would teach us, as a people, about financial responsibility, which seems to be something that we lost a long time ago.